Beth Ryan (Birth With Beth): First Time Motherhood and how Pressure Around Sleep Sneaks in and Consumes You
Today I am having a chat with Beth Ryan who you might know as Birth With Beth. Beth is a registered midwife, childbirth educator and mum. In her role, she has had the privilege of supporting many many people during birth and beyond. Beth is the owner and creator of PowerBirth Courses, a series of educational resources designed to make parents feel confident and excited during this season of life.
Beth and I have somewhere along the way connected on Instagram and we have an incredible chat about Beth's experience of having a baby in the Pandemic, the confronting reality of working as a midwife in a tertiary hospital whilst pregnant, and having followers along for the ride of her motherhood journey. We chat lots about the pressure to perfect sleep and how easy it is to become consumed, and Beth shares how she broke free of these same expectations. I am so sure you will love this conversation, and I would LOVE it if you could leave a rating and review if you found this episode helpful in any way. For the month of June, all reviews left will receive a thank-you gift in the post.
We will chat about:
Having a baby in the pandemic, and as a midwife
How biz took off in the pandemic
How protects her space on Instagram
Working as a midwife whilst pregnant - dealing with loss and complexity etc
The pressure to 'get sleep right' and how it can feel all consuming
The challenge in coming back to your intuition in your values after following rules around sleep
The lack of support once baby is no longer a newborn
Links and resources:
Instagram: birthwithbeth_.
Website: www.powerbirthcourse.com.au
Hey Mama, I have a Sleep Guide for you! For birth to 18 months, this guide is steeped in evidence and laced with compassion. And you can download the first chapter absolutely free HERE.
Are we Insta pals? If not, why not? Come and hang out at @mamamatters.au!
As always, thanks for being here- if you enjoy this poddy I would LOVE if you could give a rating and a review. It means the world to me.
xx
TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 0:10
Hello love and welcome to the Manage chatters podcast. If you're keen to ditch all of the parenting shoulds and want to uncomplicate sleep and parenting, you are in the right place, through honest conversations with experts and each other, we will help you to cut through all of the noise and to love the heck out of your imperfect and authentic parenting. I'm Fiona, a social worker by trade. Now supporting families with sleep and parenting through my business mama matters. I'm passionate about parenting psychology, biologically normal infants sleep and infant mental health and attachment. I'm also a parent and I am on a mission to normalise the shitshow that can be parenthood. I know that right now you might be trapped under a sleeping baby. Or maybe you've got your headphones in to soften the blow of the afternoon witching hour, wherever and whoever you are. I want you to know that you belong here. Now, let's have a chat
Hello, everyone. Today I am having a chat with Beth Ryan, who you might know as birth with Beth Beth is a registered midwife childbirth educator and mom in her role she has had the privilege of supporting many many people during birth and beyond. Beth is the owner and creator of power birth courses are a series of educational resources designed to make parents feel confident and excited during the season of life. Beth and I have somewhere along the way connected on Instagram. And we have an incredible chat about Beth's experience of having a baby in the pandemic. The confronting reality of working as a midwife in a tertiary hospital whilst pregnant. And having follows along for the ride of her motherhood journey. We chat lots about the pressure to perfect sleep and how easy it is to become consumed. And Beth shares how she broke free of these same expectations. I am so sure you will love this conversation. And I would love it if you could leave a rating and review if you found this episode helpful in any way. For the month of June all reviews left will receive a thank you gift in the post because it is so so helpful in helping me to get this podcast out to the greater community. So here we go. Good morning, Beth. Thank you so much for coming on today. I'm so excited to talk to you. We do have a mimosa in hand today.
Beth Ryan 2:32
We we do I'm not sure who instigated but we both wholeheartedly agreed that it was necessary.
Fiona Weaver 2:37
I think that when we scheduled you in I think one of us might have said and I don't know who's guilty because we're probably both as guilty as each other. But one of us said oh damn, it's in the morning. We can't have a drink together. And then we remember that that is a breakfast drink.
Beth Ryan 2:53
If there are no rules, you can pour yourself a drink at any time of
Fiona Weaver 2:56
the day. salutely that was embarrassed to see when I tried to order some champagne on Jimmy brings the delivery service. I said Cool your jets. Start driving till 1030
Beth Ryan 3:09
That's almost as bad as me rocking up to the BWS at 9am with my tri band totally getting this little mini bottle of champagne.
Fiona Weaver 3:20
Yeah, it's Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I'm like, this is for tonight. This is for a party. Yeah. I mean, we already had a flat tire to deal with this morning, missed my daughter's doctor's appointment. Just one of those mornings. So I feel like I deserve it. And you deserve after the week that you've had to.
Beth Ryan 3:43
Yeah, we've just come through the other side of the flu. I managed to dodge it. I don't know how I felt like a sitting duck and still kind of do to be honest. But I still don't feel safe. Yeah, very nice. I don't feel safe at all.
Fiona Weaver 3:58
Nobody's safe. No worries. So
Beth Ryan 4:01
yeah, but you know, everyone's on the app. So that's all you can ask for really?
Fiona Weaver 4:05
Yes. That's good to hear. Okay, so I am very excited to talk to you because I am really keen to chat with you about your experience. Particularly you've got Poppy, who is how many months? She just turned 10. She's almost 10 months. Yeah. I'm really keen to hear about your experience having a baby pandemic, being a birth worker being on Instagram and all those sorts of things, which I'm keen to talk to you about today. But do you want to start off by telling us about yourself and where you come from? Who's in your family and what you do?
Beth Ryan 4:37
Yeah, sure. So, um, my name is Beth and I am midwife and I was in Melbourne. I have always worked in the hospital setting as a midwife. And during the first lockdown 2020 Was it Yep, it's all a blur. I started an Instagram page just it in the hopes that I might reach a few people and bridge the gap. Because we were no longer seeing people in the hospital setting. We were doing all of our appointments over the phone. And it was such a drastic change like now I think we've kind of normalised that kind of care. But at the time, it was like, What do you mean, we're not going to come into the hospital? What do you mean, we're just gonna have a phone call. And the the angst was palpable, and I was, you know, we were at home with so much time on our hands. And so I'll just, I'll start posting some information on Instagram. And that kind of evolved into offering antenatal classes on Zoom. And that was, you know, it just kind of took off. It's snowballed into a childbirth education business, which I'm so happy and excited about, because it's not something that I necessarily set out to achieve. But it was definitely the right decision for me, because it's now a little business that I love money. And it's been such a fun, exciting couple of years to kind of learn on my feet and figure out how I can serve people and how I can share midwifery knowledge in a really accessible way that helps people kind of debunk myths, but also just feel excited about this time and not daunted, and overwhelmed. So now I have a couple of online courses. I'm preparing to take the workshops, face to face, which was so exciting, it kind of feels like we've come full circle, and like I've never been able to connect with people face to face. So I'm thrilled about that. And amongst all of that, I had a baby birth to baby girl in July of 2021. And so I became a mum in the pandemic, as well as kind of learning to run my business and, and building a beautiful online Instagram community. So it's been a good couple of years, but I wouldn't change a thing. It's been incredible.
Fiona Weaver 7:03
Yeah, that is a big couple of years. And I actually didn't know that you started birth as best, as you know, to fill that gap of seeing women face to face.
Beth Ryan 7:15
Yeah, like I had no, I had no goals or plans is perfect. Like I was literally sitting in my living room one day, and I was like, This is madness. Like, everyone, there was this energy in the air of like the midwives, the doctors, the women, like everyone was just terrified. We did not know anything about COVID. You know, classes had been cancelled. Women were not coming into the antenatal clinic, there was no hospital tours happening. Visitor restrictions were like changing every day, there was talk of partners not being able to come into hospitals. Like this was such a scary time for women, for pregnant people. And so I literally just put it out there, I shared it on my personal was okay, like, I got this, I typed in a few different names. I just saw whatever one was available. I didn't ever envisage that would be my business name, probably wouldn't be something different.
Fiona Weaver 8:10
is hilarious to hear what the other ones were they?
Beth Ryan 8:15
Gosh, I can't even remember now like, I think I tried like, Baby Brain education. And like, I was just like typing in a whole bunch of like, obviously everything to do with like, Baby Bump beyond, like it's all been taken. And so I just typed in like birth, birth and then an underscore, because I think there's another birth with this. Who's like $1 or something in America. And because I just didn't ever think it would become anything. I was like all the time. It's no big deal. Cool. We'll just show them. And yeah, I'll find one. And I think I just I never anticipated. I think I shared one photo of my face to be like, Hey, I'm the Midwest behind the page. But I've never really anticipated that it would evolve to kind of include discussions around motherhood and like a little bit of a peek into my life. That was never really Yeah, I didn't really have any intentions or goals, as I said, but it has kind of organically gone in that direction. And it's been so beautiful and the connections I've made with people and other health professionals and it's challenged me in some ways to think about like, how do I want to work? How do I want to reach people? What do I have to offer? And so yeah, it was maybe a little bit of faith just kind of stepping in and I launched at the right time, I think
Fiona Weaver 9:35
I love watching your space grow. And I think that we can hear lots of negative things about the Instagram space, but I relate to that as well. I love that community. Like if I have some time off social media, I really look forward to coming back and connecting in some way or another because it's just such a beautiful thing to connect people to each other as well and to connect like minded parents in the same sort of Hasan,
Beth Ryan 10:01
totally unlike I think Instagram is what you make it. Obviously, I think we're all feeling it at the moment, Instagram is changing a lot. And it's changing, you know, even from two and a half years ago when I first started the way that Instagram like, show people, your content, and all of that is really, really different. But I think what stays the same is that you have the ability to curate who you connect with, like, you don't have to follow anyone. As pesky as the algorithm is, it also connects you with lots of accounts. It sees what you're looking at, it sees what you like, it seems like your favourite topics, and it hands it to you on a platter. And it's like, Hey, have you seen this account? Or did you want to reach out to this person. And if you're intentional with the way that you use it, you can end up it can be a really nurturing nourishing space. But I completely also understand the flip side in that. Especially with motherhood and birth topics, it can get a little bit dicey. And it can also be maybe a source of like overwhelm. But I'm like you I have done that it's been a really positive thing.
Fiona Weaver 11:06
Yes, absolutely. Like as a creator, I see a lot of positive, but I also see as a consumer, and I'm a consumer as well as a creator. But as a consumer, if you are in the thick of it with baby sleep or birth, something like that, and you're already feeling very anxious and overwhelmed and inundated with all of this conflicting advice, then the bloody algorithm sees that you are anxious and Googling all these things, and then they throw some more things at you that just continue to drown you. So I think like you said, we really need to use it intentionally and curate our own space, and mindfully scroll. And you know, recognise if something is making us feel shitty, then get rid of it. Because we don't need to be. We don't need to have that
Beth Ryan 11:53
totally, like don't be afraid of the unfollow. But no, like no one. You know, the creators don't know most of the time, like unless they are anxiously checking on followers, which I don't know anyone who has time to do that. Like they don't know that you're disengaging. And if they do notice that you're disengaging, they don't know why. And they probably don't go back. If you are thinking like artists, I'm feeling really agitated when I see this or like that makes my heart rate rise. And I'm clearly quite triggered by some of the themes that this person is seeing that I'm following, like go in a different direction. And the algorithm will recognise that after a few days, and you might get to move into a space that feels more like, you know better for you at that time.
Fiona Weaver 12:38
And your unfollows aren't permanent either. And like you said, nobody sees you on follow. I don't look at my own follows at all. Somebody asked me some day, every now and then somebody will ask me how many unfollows you're getting us? I don't look, because my wise mind knows that. The more unfollows the more I'm aligning with the right people. I you know, it's not personal. And I encourage people to unfollow if things aren't resonating for them. But my emotional mind would probably get hurt feelings. So I just don't go there.
Beth Ryan 13:07
Yeah, and like you said, we're both we're consumers and creators, and we're humans. So there is an element. When you think, oh, like my phone hasn't grown much in the last month. Maybe I'm not doing something like that, then you have to remember that. It's like, No, but look at your DM engagement. Look at, you know, how you're making people feel? And does it really matter if you're not, you know, having lots and lots of growth?
Fiona Weaver 13:30
Yeah, that's right. They look after the people that you do have. Exactly, yeah, for me when I'm not growing. It's because I haven't shown up like I just disappear all the time when I'm not feeling creative. I just can't show up if I'm not in the zone.
Beth Ryan 13:45
Yeah, I find that too. And if I'm feeling vulnerable in myself, or just as a person, I just know that it's my even if I do put stuff out there, it's not the quality or the vibes that I want the one I'm better to take a few days away and then show up the way that I want to. Yes, that means less growth. Because I'm inconsistent. Yeah. And Instagram doesn't like that. But I would rather make sure that like when I am popping my face into people's face. Mike was just said like intentional and mindful and
Fiona Weaver 14:18
with purpose. Yeah. And it's absolutely so much more authentic that way as well. And people connect with authenticity. So I'm really curious to hear how that was having a baby whilst already being a birth. Can I say birth work or just midwife? Being a midwife? Yeah, because I started my Instagram when my second child was almost one. So I was feeling like relatively, I mean, whenever confident outweighed whenever you're moving into the next space, but you know, find your feet Yeah, I feel as though it would have looked a lot different if I had started that when I was just having a baby.
Beth Ryan 14:59
You Yeah, so look, the pregnancy stuff didn't throw me like I feel. I think the benefit of being a midwife, and my personal philosophies and values around pregnancy and birth, I was actually super calm. Like I was super chill, and I didn't. I didn't find Instagram to be a very overwhelming place. During that stage. I found with my workplace more triggering. Social media like that was a little bit tricky. Just because I work at a big tertiary hospital. We see a lot of complexity. And in the past, I've thrived on that. I love it. I love problem solving. I love like, I hate to say it, but sometimes, I think people who work medically that kind of enjoy the occasional adrenaline rush and thinking like I can solve this problem, I can work quickly. I know what to do. But in pregnancy, I found it way harder to just be clinical. And there was a few weeks sort of late second trimester, I think, well, I was like this. I'm finding it really hard to like, disconnect. And not think about the fact that like, I've got this I've literally got a baby in my belly right in front of me. She's like, I didn't know who it was a che. And that's the time but like, this baby is so connected to me, and I'm doing things and seeing things that pregnant people probably shouldn't be seeing and doing. So that was really, really hard. And I had a big cry to my midwife. She went one day with just like, how are you? And like, how do you feel about your upcoming birth, and I was just like, oh, my gosh, not good. And just cried. And then once I sort of acknowledged what my fears were, I felt fine. Again, like it was just this weird wobble. And it's like, I had to own it. And we work I am. I am nervous about X Y, Zed, and this is making me feel really yucky. And then once I got that off my chest, I was like, cool, like, I'm alright, I trust I trust this process. I trust my body, I trust my midwife like this is going to be great. And yeah, I, I was pretty inconsistent in the way that I showed up on social media during that time, like true to true to form I didn't feel and to overly Share, Like I shared a little bit that I thought would be helpful for people. But I kept a lot just to myself, because I think I knew that. It was Yeah, finding that balance between like sharing and being open and vulnerable is really important. But also being like, this is your life, you don't have to share everything if you don't want to. And so I think that was kind of like my approach in pregnancy. And I would say it wasn't until after the newborn phase had come and gone. That's when I found that social media became a little bit more dicey for me, because that was the unknown. I've never had a three month old baby. Pregnancy and newborn makes sense. To me. It's my job. I can apply, like logic and knowledge to those situations where it's like a three month old baby. I've never spent more than a few hours. And so that was when I started to go like, I feel I feel
Fiona Weaver 18:16
wobbly. Again. When you say wobbly, what do you mean by that?
Beth Ryan 18:22
I don't think I trusted myself as much as I thought I would. And I feel like I was putting pressure on myself to do it. Like, right and then making like quotation marks. We were really isolated. Like looking back, I think we were keeping our head above water. And we felt okay at the time because we we were running on this like weird lockdown energy that we'd had for so long now. But the borders close between my family from New South Wales, and we live in Victoria. And the border is closed again. When I was 37 weeks pregnant, we thought that they were going to be open. Yeah. So they'd opened. And we were like planning for my mom and dad to come down and stay with us for a little bit and drop the freezer and just like do all of those postpartum things that we encourage people to have in place. And then the borders closed and they opened two months later.
Fiona Weaver 19:26
Oh, wow. So you have proper Yeah. Isolated.
Beth Ryan 19:31
Yep. So I think that that three four month mark were like it coincided with the end of my knowledge, like my knowledge kind of mana.
Fiona Weaver 19:42
That's such a medical perspective, isn't it? Like? This is the knowledge I have work in real life and then yeah,
Beth Ryan 19:51
totally. Like I was such a midwife in the first six weeks like nothing stressed me. I was like, Cool. Like, I know how many nappies she's done. cuz, like, you know, I know that my breasts are draining. I love to that stage, I felt so confident and chilled and like we just fully leaned into it. And then, yeah, so I think that three four month mark was like, it was way too long to be away from family and friends. My Yeah, my medical midwifery knowledge was expiring. And your baby changes at three months, like they become a baby, not a newborn. And that, you know, everywhere you stop, people stopped thinking or you've just had a baby. It's like, that weird time where it's like, oh, yeah, that happened. I'm sure you found your fate now, because you're a few months in. And, like, I think you'll relate to this, because a lot of your clients find you through this way. But it was sleep that got me Well,
Fiona Weaver 20:52
I think there's a real social pressure around this three to four month mark. But if you have a newborn, yes, by all means, you know, baby wear and, and have context naps, and breastfeed to sleep and all these things. Because your newborn just, you know, the fourth trimester, it's really beautiful. When you get to three or four months, and they're like, Whoa, you're still doing that. Now you've stuffed everything up. And now you have to make changes before this four months sleep regression. There's this time between newborn finishes three months to four months, that you need to get all of your ducks in a row and all of these things to put good habits in place.
Beth Ryan 21:28
Yeah, and I didn't even realise I was being influenced, like, the sneakiness of the sleep conversation. I think, like, I am someone who I thought I was really educated, and across babies and. And I'm also like, a really, I'm a bit of a, I've got your personalities. I'm a really control freak in some aspects. But I'm also quite relaxed, like nothing really bothered me in pregnancy. Even now, like, you know, Puppy calls all over everything, she bumped her head. Occasionally she put things in her mouth like that stuff doesn't really stress me out. So I think it caught me off guard, like how much I wanted to get a handle on sleep, like I was just like, if I can just sort it out, and I'm not going to her all day, and she's not up all night, like everything else will be fine. So we find that I haven't seen family, it'll be fine that my partner is back at work. It'll be fine that I'm you know, well and truly the first one out of my friends to have a baby because everything will be sorted. And I think that's the lie that we get told, right? Like, if you can get your ducks in a row, everything else will be fine. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 22:35
yeah. And you just have to do X Y Zed to get them sleeping. So if that's not working for you, you're not following the plan properly, or you're missing something. So it sends you into this spiral of self doubt and shame and guilt and obsession. Like I don't know that there's many mothers who have escaped this sleep obsession because it's so noisy in this industry.
Beth Ryan 22:58
I think my key word you've said is obsession. Like I've never had an issue with Instagram, even as like a teenager and a young adult. You know, I know a lot of people go through stages of like comparing and wishing they looked a certain way or looking at aspirational lifestyles and being like, Oh, why isn't my like that, like, that's never been me. But then I became obsessed with puppy sleep. It became like my full time job. And it's so hot like good and hard to hear you say those words like if you're not following the plan, it's because you're not doing something because that's what I was told. Like you must be consistent and ours or she must be dozy on the rest because that's why she's not so settling for keep her awake on the breath. And like it's so hard to look back on that time and be like, like actually have to laugh a bit and be like, How bizarre that you were told to like rattle like a rattle in her face. Yeah, like they've like get like a bottle get like a rattle, like rattle it in her face so that she's not falling asleep on the boob because that's when you know, then you'll put her down in a bassinet and she will not settle for you because she already had had a timeout. And now I'm like, I faded asleep but most of cups and I just, she just gets delicious and Dopey and I just hunker down and she you know religious and
Fiona Weaver 24:21
Dopey I love that.
Beth Ryan 24:24
Thank you. So look, I think it's like it's that weird time when you come out the other side of being really proud of yourself for finding your feet but also trying not to feel guilty about and trying not to be hard on yourself or going down that rabbit hole because there's one that I didn't really think I would go down and I also feel like I should say like I'm it's maybe a bit controversial but like I'm not completely anti free training because I do think that some aspects For what we did, did really help. And I look at my life and our life and our family. And it's like, well, we don't have any family in the state. My income is a small business that I run on my own. There are times that I need Poppy Taberna isn't on me. And so there was elements of what we learned that were really like they were beneficial. But then there was like these sticking points where clearly what we were doing wasn't working. And then we had people saying, just keep going, she'll get the hang, you know, just keep on the note. Like, you've just got to keep being consistent. She'll come around, and I wish I had just said, like, this is not working really like, can we just call timeout feeling? Yeah, it's not feeling good. And there was one night that I just said to Trish, I just said, I'm not doing this anymore. And you know, when I picked her up, and we didn't look back, I just said, it was like, I knew I'd reached my limit. And I was like, no, like, we are completely changing tact. And he was like, Yeah, whatever feels good for you, like, I'm happy. And since then, we've had big ups, big downs, but I feel like time is doing its job. And then we're getting there.
Fiona Weaver 26:12
Yeah, that's awesome. I think that's really important to speak to as well, when you said that you're not anti sleep training. I think it's such a shame in this culture that, you know, people think there is either use Sleep Train, or you don't, either you are for sleep training, or you're anti sleep training. And I would be really offended if, if people thought that I was anti sleep training, because sleep training is such an umbrella term in such a broad term. For some people, it might mean control, crying and leaving your child to cry all night like that, that sleep training. Sleep training, might also be keeping an eye on awake windows and having a bit of a rhythm to your day. And, you know, using a sleep sack and white noise, and you're trying different ways of getting to sleep, or it might be transitioning from those contact naps, because they're not feeling sustainable, to supporting them to sleep in their car. So sleep training can look so different for so many families. And I think it's really important that we open up that conversation and be open minded to one another, to reduce that dichotomy, because it's not serving anyone.
Beth Ryan 27:17
Yeah, and I also think, like, we have to look at the reason why, like, the context in which sleep support and sleep training as an umbrella term exists. Like, it's so lovely, the sentiment of a village and a community and baby wearing all day, you know, God having our baby against us as we go about our day. All of that is beautiful. But if we look at the way that our society is structured, we usually have a full parent at home. Life is super bloody expensive. So you've got usually two adults in the home that need to be earning a living, it's pretty normal to live away from family. And there's definitely, it's not as normalised to lean on your friends in the way that we really need to. And so when we might put all of that in a melting pot, no wonder, we all need at some point our babies and children to be sleeping in in somewhat of a sustainable way, because we don't have the time space or like the lack of pressure that we need to give our babies time. And so I think that's something that I've made peace with it's like, and we didn't like to put it out there. We didn't do cried out or anything like that. But there was crying involved. And it just got to the point where it helps. But we found that like the the white noise and awake windows and just keeping an eye on things throughout the day, that was the bit that I'm like, You know what I would do that, again, that's been really, really valuable. Yeah, keep that. But that's helped me be less hard on myself to look at like the factors like in a really logical way and be like, be kind to yourself, like, there's all this other stuff going on. And like all you're asking for is the ability for like a couple hours a day to put your baby in the bassinet. Like when we break it down, like you're not you're not doing anything wrong, you're just feeling it out and figuring out, like what feels right for you.
Fiona Weaver 29:19
And sometimes you just have to go through the shit to realise what feels right for you to find your feet and find your own way of being in relationship with your baby.
Beth Ryan 29:30
For sure, and I'm such a solution oriented person like I'm in all other aspects of my life. So I think I and I chatted to a lot of other moms who feel this way but like I needed to do it to know that it wasn't to me like I needed to go to that end of the spectrum and then gradually pull back until I found that sweet spot because had I not explored you know, x y Zed. I might have been months wondering well what if what if what if and I think If you're in it now and you're listening to this, and you're like, I don't know what to do, just like, try to listen to your gut and that feeling in your chest because it will tell you, like I said, I just had this night and I was like, nope, not anymore. Like, I just feel it. We're it's all good that we've done it, but like, this isn't working for us anymore. But up until that point, I hadn't felt like that. So you like, try to tune in? I guess to that little, that little voice that's like your, my, my voice? It's like, yeah, I don't know if any of that's making sense.
Fiona Weaver 30:31
No, it is. And it's something that I sort of speak to Mother mothers about as well and just asked, How's it feeling for you? How is that feeling for you in those moments? And what's your gut telling you because we are sort of trained out of our instincts, we're trained out of tuning into and recognising that gut feeling and that gut feeling that interoception that is a real thing that we that we have and should harness. But sometimes it can be really overwhelming for people to hear. Just follow your instinct. Like, what the fuck is my instinct? How do I get it?
Beth Ryan 31:03
Yeah, like, I'm so far from my instinct. Scroll.
Fiona Weaver 31:07
Exactly. My instinct. Yeah, went out the window a long time ago with all the Instagram marketing and things.
Beth Ryan 31:15
And it's hard, right? Because like you going back to that thing of us being creators and consumers. Sometimes I'm so acutely aware that I'm like, I am part of this could potentially be part of this overwhelming, like seeing voices, feeding people when they open their phone. And that's something that I do struggle with a little bit, especially because when I, when I do talk about my mom life, there is so much curiosity around what's happening for sleep around sleep.
Fiona Weaver 31:50
Just every time you put a question box out, no matter how many times you say nothing about sleep, and then it's like Sleep, sleep, sleep sleep, which just speaks to the cultural obsession and the anxiety around sleep, I get it.
Beth Ryan 32:03
Yeah, and that was like, I think something that was good for me was to stop sharing. Stop sharing what was happening with us to sleep when I was feeling so unsure. Because I was conscious that I'm a really open book. So someone said to me, are you doing sleep training? Who have you been working with? Like, I'll share? Because I don't want to be like, oh, like, It's the secret. I'm like, Look, this is, you know, what's happening for us? We don't want it exactly like and at the time, you know, if something is working for me, like I'm happy to share it. But then I guess what I became really cognizant of, and something that still shocks me is that people take on board, what I say. And that's an aspect of Instagram that I've had to get used to is that people will be like, What are you doing, because I want to do it. And so when I went through this stage of like, being like, Oh, I don't know if it feels right anymore. And I don't know if this is serving. All I could think about was like, I've just told, like, will not hold but like I've just shared and by sort of proxy, told a bunch of people to do this thing, that I'm no longer loving. And for me as a mom on Instagram, and someone who has become a trusted voice. I found that so hard. And I can be really honest with you about that. Because I was like, Well, how do I navigate that? Like, do why do I circle back and be like, Oh, hey, just so you know, like, we're not doing that anymore? Because it didn't feel right. Or do I just trust that people would have done their due diligence and checked it out and be like, well, just because that doesn't maybe I'll just see if it's me before I go I've had and I don't know if you've ever found that. It was like, sharing stuff on Instagram and then being like, Oh, I don't know, like that doesn't really feel right press anymore.
Fiona Weaver 34:01
Yeah. 100% Yeah, it is. It is a lot of pressure, isn't it? And I hadn't. I mean, I've been following you since you've had Poppy. I think she might have been a couple of months old when you when I came across your Instagram. And I never felt that there was any information that was becoming advice around sleep, like, I felt like it was just very much you're just sharing your story and there was no judgement or advice giving in that. So I think you can probably release that a little bit. But I think it's really important that we know that we can also change our minds and we reserve a right to change our minds not just because we have you know said something on social media doesn't tie us to that like I think as long as our our values and our core beliefs and what is truly meaningful and important to us remains constant. Then it's okay for us to be open about that. Because that's what other people are doing as well. Yeah,
Beth Ryan 35:01
yeah, I think that's something where I've felt so taken so much company and where I sit now is like, I'm allowed, like, I'm allowed to change my mind. Yeah, fine.
Fiona Weaver 35:10
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I always say, I wish that I could go back to everybody who had a baby before me. And just say, I'm really sorry for anything I ever said for anything I judged or any unsolicited advice or questions about do they sleep through the night? Or are they a good baby, or I remember being at my sister's wedding. Speaking to one of her friends, I was so far away from having any babies. I was a nanny and a teacher. So I wasn't a full teacher. I was studying teaching. So I was very much in that behavioural. That behavioural approach to parenting and controlling children. And I remember telling this girl who had a baby, trying to give her a pep talk on you need sleep, you know, you're important too. And talking about doing control crying, and she's like, I don't want to and I was like, I know. But she'll be okay. Like, I cringe. I wish I could find her and say, Holy shit, I am so sorry. Like, you could have told me to fuck off. And that would have been totally appropriate.
Beth Ryan 36:14
So like, as I said, Yes. And I think I've been out of the house without Poppy. Like, I can count on one hand, you know? And I was at the stadium. And I was like, so have you been able to have a feeling good. I'd had a couple of drinks as with all my friends, and I was like, Oh, God, I feel like me again. Like, this is beautiful. And someone who like I know a little bit but not overly well, and she was a couple of years younger than me. We're just chatting. I was like, how are you? She's like, Good. How's your little one? Is she a good baby? And I was just like, I don't know, like something in me just like, I was like, I don't want to have this conversation, because I just am trying to trying to be like carefree. But like, I don't want to go there. And I was like, Yeah, good. And she's like, some babies, you know, this is shit. And I was like, Okay, we're going. I was like, Oh, my bag. And I was like, Oh, like that. I don't agree with that. But like, yeah, she's, she's, she's great. Like, I'm happy with that kind of vibe. And then she just kept going. And she like, really dug her heels in. And she's like, Yeah, like parents these days. Like, they're just so you know, funny about leaving their babies, like, It's good that you're out and about, and I wanted to be like, girlfriend like, I, my baby's been in my group for like nine months, like, I have not left the house. Like, I have to scrounge through my wardrobe to find something that is suitable to either 30 I believe you make, like, I am not comfortable leaving a baby. Because she's pressed on. And she's like, you know, babies need to be able to, like, be confident enough to be passed around the room and not get so attached to mom and dad. And like you see it all the time. Like, we just wrapped them in cotton wool, and I was just like, oh, like you're gonna have, you know, me, yeah, back off. But I also thought, there's a really good chance that one day you'll start a family, and you will look back on this conversation and just be like, Why? Like, what was I talking about? Yeah, but I do think it speaks to, like, the narrative is so set, that even people who haven't had babies feel like they are saying the right thing to you, when they're like, your baby shouldn't be too attached to you. Like, it's just silly that, you know, we wrapped them in, in cotton wool these days, and all of that, and I was just like, I don't want to have this conversation. But like, you know, and I just thought it was so interesting. I was like, Why? Why do you have these beliefs? Like, yeah, you know, what, where's this come? I wanted to say like, Where's this coming from? Like, I want to unpack it with you, but I was like, have another champagne and go have fun?
Fiona Weaver 39:00
Yeah, I tend not to go there either. Hey, I just Yeah, Nolan smile. And I think the good baby conversation is just one of these a baby wakes and feeds and cries and repeat. Totally. He's totally Yep. By having a hell a baby should be. Nope. Yeah. All right. So I'm not sure I just he's just sleeps next to me. So wakes up has buco back to sleep.
Beth Ryan 39:27
Yeah, exactly. And you do want to say like it's all a blur, like sometimes. I will roll over in the morning and be like like, did she wake up like what happened? And like, you're just on autopilot. It gets to the point where you're like so the other morning I woke up and I said, Oh my God, but she slept through like, I mean, you're like, yeah, why like, Oh, nice. Because you got up at 11am again at two
Fiona Weaver 39:58
we did not remember physically getting up and walking to another room as well. And you didn't remember, that's amazing. Is that the same? Yes.
Beth Ryan 40:13
But he's just, he's like, Hey, look, if you want to take that and run with it, like, go for it, right, and I'm just gonna pretend.
Fiona Weaver 40:23
But also, it also relates to, you don't need to count the number of weeks in the morning, you can say, Oh, that was a good night, or that was a bad night, or I don't know what happened and just leave it there. We don't need to track and look at the clock every time we have to get up and Feed Our Babies.
Beth Ryan 40:38
No, and go like go with what you feel like, there are nights where we sleep for longer and wake up and we're like, Oh, great. And then there's other nights where, you know, we are both up and down with her. And we wake up and we're like, Oh, good, the sun's up a new day. So like, I've learned to not get so fixated. And to do something until it's not working. And then, you know, then you can go or I will do we need to change it up? Do we need to try something new? Trial and error has become like our best friend.
Fiona Weaver 41:11
Flexible experimentation? Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. And it makes you be the expert again. So instead of you having to go to other experts for advice and routines in, you know, steps 123, it puts you back in the driver's seat. And I think that that can really come through for our babies as well to see that we are in charge. And we are confident that we'll work it out. And we're working with them. We're in this dance of getting to know each other and trying to grow with our babies as well. I think that goes a long way rather than every time we see something that we aren't sure about, within open a book and seeing what to do next. Which I still do. There's times with my six year old boy, I'm like, what would make a dent say, because I don't know how to parent this kid.
Beth Ryan 41:57
I mean, I feel like that's different. That's just like looking to the heavens and asking for advice.
Fiona Weaver 42:04
I think there's definitely a balance, though, isn't there, of course, use these resources, like people who are qualified and who you align with, they will have wisdom to share. But hold that gently alongside your own maternal wisdom and intuition and your own flexible experimentation.
Beth Ryan 42:24
Because totally, and there was this one, I like that I knew that I needed to, to disengage with like quite a few of the resources that I've chosen to follow. She probably was crying, and I felt like frozen. And I was like, I don't know what to do. Yes, you do this, like go in and pick up your baby and hold her and feed her like, but there was a couple of minutes where I was like, it was because I was running through in my mind. Like, will she learned that that? You know, like I was, I was taking note of all of the things that I had taken on board from following pages and listening to podcasts, and reading books. And then I was like, okay, you've just said in your head that you don't know what to do, which means that you need to be in everything. And just like go back to basics, which is go into the room, be with your baby, and just go from there, like see what happens next, and then make a decision was that
Fiona Weaver 43:21
the night changed? Like was that the night you kind of try?
Beth Ryan 43:27
The night that I changed where you're actually away. And she pops with no great co sleeper. I tried many times she's one of those weekly babies that she finds it really soothing to like, smash your head against the mattress. You know, like you've got sensory? Yeah. And so when she's next to us, she just it just she can't do her thing. And we've tried a few times and it hasn't worked out. But we were away and she was imported quite in another room and she was just howling. And I just something just, like flipped to me. And I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. And I actually went and got her and took her like got into bed with her in a separate bed not with my partner and her and I just laid there and I was like she'll sleep and she's ready. I'm just gonna lie here with her. She can feed on and off if she needs to. And even though she's not a great co sleeper like we just she did fall asleep next to me that night and we spent the night sleeping together and it was just like almost just like a piece. Like, like a reset. Exactly. And it wasn't I just actually giggled that night like wallbeds like I went from one extreme to like getting up a little bit wake up in the morning I was extra. Right so I googled Montessori
Fiona Weaver 44:50
Montessori family now,
Beth Ryan 44:53
we've totally changed. Like, I know that we just waited like six weeks for a cup to be delivered, but we're actually getting a full But and I just entertained like, like you said that kind of like no pressure experimentation. I just let my mind go in like 1000 different directions. And it's like, okay, well, maybe we try something again, maybe we offloaded maybe our rocker again and see if that works. And I just let myself like think through all of these alternatives to what we've been doing. And I don't know, it just freed up space in my mind to be like, it's fine. Like, if you do something different every night. It's okay. Whereas before, I felt like the only path to success was through consistency,
Fiona Weaver 45:38
and consistency.
Beth Ryan 45:41
Like she'll only learn if you repeat the same. And yeah, and we just got back from that trip. And funnily enough, the next night, she felt like, no calm, like, she just went down and had a good night and, and then, when we came home, we just started to really, the thing that we are consistent with now is her wind down. And it's become, it's gone from being like this really stressful thing that you know, 5pm needs to roll around. And I would feel so like, like, what's gonna happen tonight, to see some really beautiful predictability, she has dinner, where by that stage, we're both home, she jumped in the shower with one of us. And I think that skin to skin moving away from a bath and into a shower has been like a game changer for us. Like she just visibly relaxes, and she gets cuddled with one of us in the shower. And then we put her in a sleep suit. She has boobs, and we read her a book or a bottle. And then she goes into her cart. And then it's kind of like, it doesn't matter what happens when she goes into a cart, there's no expectation. It's not like, because we've done all this, we are expecting her to fall asleep. It's just like, Well, regardless, you just have this really nice wind down, it's really nice connection. At the end of the day, the three of us are at home, you know, you turn the lamps on, you turn the big lights off, and it's just this really beautiful time of the day. And it's kind of gives us energy to be like, okay, cool. Well, she needs to be rocked to sleep tonight. That's a lot because we've all just had this like, timeout together. And most of the time these days, she'll just roll over and go to sleep now. And then there's nights like last night where she called out for us and we're like, okay, no, you're not. And we know that now, if she's standing up in the car, she's rattling her little. Like she's rattling the cage. And that's a little signal to be like nah, guys like tonight, something like that. You just go in you do what we have to do. And that's where we're at at the moment.
Fiona Weaver 47:46
Ah, that speaks so beautifully to the uniqueness of like every day is different and doesn't have to look the same. And sometimes we struggle more than other days. Some days my husband will lie awake asleep for hours, like you'll have full insomnia. Other nights he will just go off to sleep Some nights I will feel a little bit anxious going to bed for some reason, and I will have to listen to a meditation. Sometimes I'll need to stay up till 10 to get that sleep pressure up high enough and then other times I'll be ready for bed at eight. Every night is so different for us. Why should it be the same for them? Yeah,
Beth Ryan 48:21
100% and like that sleep pressure thing of like just pay a little bit more attention to them. Like do they seem tired? 630 and they don't seem tired. Like, I know that you're desperate for a break. But like maybe your night's gonna be so much smoother if you just like hang in there for another 30 minutes. Then you do wind down and then by then they're actually yawning they're rubbing their eyes and they're like, Oh, thanks for putting me in my cart rather than like what I'm doing here. I'm not ready. So I'm going to go ballistic.
Fiona Weaver 48:49
Look at the clock papi. You're ready.
Beth Ryan 48:53
I'm ready mommy. Today. I mean, it's it's so true what you say about our sleep like associations because I've had so many aha moments in their lives in the last 10 months of motherhood that like one night I was like spraying my sleep spray on my pillow Am I getting my rain ready and like setting up my bed and I was like I take so much like there's so many things I have to check off and so much ritual to help myself fall asleep. I'm still gonna lie here for half an hour getting comfy and letting myself relax enough to drop off to sleep. But for some reason for mums I've expected my tiny baby to be put in a car and fall asleep within 15 minutes. You know and I think that was really telling as well but we've been led so far from like, what's acceptable for us and what we expected them when you look at it in a really like, you know logical way you're like this is actually little bit crazy. This is silly.
Fiona Weaver 50:02
Yeah, it's interesting that you take it back to, if you look at that in a logical way like that is something that connects you to you know, you're talking about yourself being quite a problem solving person solution focus, when you can connect it to logic that feels more comfortable for you. And it also brings you closer to your intuition.
Beth Ryan 50:23
Yeah, you're tuning back into like, looking at things really pragmatically is, ironically, it's probably what got me lost in the first place. But then when I use it in the right way, it's what connects me to making decisions
Fiona Weaver 50:39
is powerful. That's why in my academy, our first module is looking at the history of parenting and sleep advice. Because if you look at that, logically, you can see how we have come so far from, you know, our own maternal wisdom, and the village and all the things and then also looking at what is actually biologically normal, in terms of the research. So we're sort of like you're saying, we're using all that data and the research to say that this is what you feel. It's like validation, isn't it? Like what you feel is actually, you know, scientifically, reasonable, real? Like, yeah, yeah.
Beth Ryan 51:24
Yeah, definitely. And yeah, I think all I can do is just like, take all of these ups and downs and remember them, if I, you know, I choose to have another baby. And moving forward, when Poppy has rough patches, like, I just feel so much calmer about it. I'm like, that's fine. Like, that's okay. Because we got through these other rough patches, and we found our way. And so there'll be a way out of this as well. You don't have to, not everything has to be sustainable. Not everything has to have a solution. You're allowed to just be in a rough patch of sleep with the knowledge that I mean, I also want to preface this and say like, if you're struggling, it's always okay to ask for help, like sleep deprivation is real. So please don't listen to this and think, Oh, I just have to cop it. Like, your work is so important. You know how important it is for families to get to that sweet spot. But also like, don't dry it. Like I've just learned, Don't drive yourself crazy. Just let it be. And you'll figure it out.
Fiona Weaver 52:25
Yeah, it's a beautiful note to end on. I could talk to you all day, because I can relate to your experience so much. And I really appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that experience with us. I really think it will connect with so many people. And so I'm really grateful. So thank you so much for being on here. I have so enjoyed our chat, and where can people find you?
Beth Ryan 52:48
Yes. So thank you for having me. And thank you for creating the space to have these chats. I just think that's so, so important. And if people want to connect with me, I'm on Instagram at first with Beth underscore. I have a website, breakfast best.com. Today, you and my DMs and email and all of that sort of thing that always open them. If you're a pregnant mom, listening along to this, you can also go to pelvis.com today use pelvic course. Sorry, got combinatie. And check out the online courses that I offer. If you're looking to feel prepared and excited for the week, kind of. Yeah, we cover all of our bases and look at all the different ways that you can welcome a baby. So that's a resource that's there as well.
Fiona Weaver 53:37
Love it. Thank you so much for your time today Beth.
Beth Ryan 53:41
Thanks now bye
Fiona Weaver 53:45
thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode, let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.au Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
