Dr Kyla, Paediatric Dietitian on starting solids, picky eating and the language we use around food
Dr Kyla Smith is a Paediatric Dietitian who supports parents to help them feed their families with confidence. Her range of online memberships simplify the challenges you face in feeding your kids, from actually enjoying the process introducing solid foods, navigating fussy eating with confidence, and taking the steps out of packing school lunches and feeding the whole family. She’s also currently working on changing the way we talk about food in schools. Kyla has been a dietitian for 16 years and has a PhD in childhood weight management. She passionate about changing the way this generation of children feel about food and their bodies.
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TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:00
Hello my love's oh my goodness it has been a hot minute. I recorded this interview with Dr. Kyla the day I was coming down with a gnarly case of influenza and my entire family followed suit. And it has just been a rough couple of weeks. I am 39 Weeks Pregnant today I am ready to park and we have just not been well so everyone's on the mend well and truly on the mend. We're all better. But it has taken me this long to come back around and edit this chat with Kyla.
Fiona Weaver 00:33
So I know you're going to love it. Dr. Kyla is a pediatric dietitian you might follow her on Instagram you might be part of her membership everybody loves her. She supports parents to help them feed their families with confidence. She has a range of online memberships to simplify the challenges you face in feeding your kids from actually enjoying the process introducing solid foods navigating fussy eating with confidence and, and taking the stress out of packing school lunches and feeding the whole family. She's also currently working on changing the way we talk about food in schools. She has been a dietitian for 16 years and has a PhD in childhood weight management. She is passionate about changing the way this generation of children feel about food and their bodies. And this is exactly what you hear in this chat with Kyla, she is so passionate about the way that we talk to our kids about food.
Fiona Weaver 01:19
taking the pressure off parents to do this perfectly and taking the pressure off kids to eat a certain variety of foods. So this chat was really validating and reassuring. I share stories about having a fussy eater for myself. And I hope that you get a lot out of this conversation. You can find Dr. Kyla at Dr. Kyler on Instagram or I will put her memberships and things in the show notes here as well. So reach out if you have any more questions or you would like to access any further support. Enjoy this chat. Welcome Dr. Kyla, I am stoked to have you here. I know that we are going to have to rein it in today because I could talk to you for a long time. I have a lot of questions and so to all of my followers, so thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. Kyla 02:05
My pleasure and talking is not a problem of mine. So
Dr. Kyla 02:09
as well, I like it. Oh, love it. Alright, so introduce yourself. Let us know who you are, who's in your family and the work that you do. Sure, I am Carla, I am a pediatric dietitian. I'm a mom of two. So I have two young girls Elsie is five and Clio is two.
Dr. Kyla 02:27
And my husband lives with us.
Dr. Kyla 02:31
And we have two cats. And that's my family. I work in my own business. So I run online memberships for parents who want to feed their kids well and feel good about it and feel confident about what they're doing. So three programs baby mealtimes, toddler mealtimes, and family mealtimes. And my work is really about Yeah, helping kids learn to love food, helping adults and parents feel good about feeding their kids feel confident, just so that everybody can enjoy food and get on with their life without all the stress that kind of comes from lots of different places around food and diet and bodies and all of those things. So many layers, hay, so many layers, so many layers. Did you get into this work before you had kids? Yeah, yeah, so pretty much spent my entire career. I've been a dietitian for 16 years now. And I have worked with extreme fussy eating. So originally, I worked with kids who had a very restricted range of foods, these are kids who come into our clinic with, you know, a couple of safe foods, they can't eat family meals, they, they can't go to school camps, they are so restricted and so fearful of food. And what I do now is kind of preventing them coming into my clinic. So I know that you know, the work that we do in early childhood, to set them up on a different road makes such a big difference. And it's not like it's something you can stop happening. Like there are always going to be kids who for multiple reasons, find food really challenging. But there is so much you can be empowered with as a parent early on, to decide how you want to do things and not kind of be forced into patterns of you know, having to get your child to eat or feeling like you need to force them or control them or, you know, do all of these, you know, tricky things around food. So my job now is about like from the start helping you to enjoy that rather than trying to fix it later on. Yeah, absolutely. So what are some of those things that can play a part into whether our child has tendencies for fussy eating? There are so many things like I really think for a lot of the kids we work with. You can have you can have lots of things go on as a kid and be totally unaffected by it. But you could also have, you know, the stars aligning and there's just this period of time when you
Dr. Kyla 05:00
Perhaps you've got really enlarged tonsils, and you also maybe you've got a bit of reflux going on, and swallowing food really hurt. And at the same time, you had a bit of apple that was really flowery, and you're a quite sensitive kid. And you notice that texture. And that also happens at a time when everybody was really rushed. And somebody was like making you eat something really quickly before we had to get to swimming lessons, or whatever it is that this kind of combination of factors. So for most kids, there's some element of either like a pain or discomfort with eating, and that can be ears, nose, throat, constipation, reflux, allergy kind of stuff, where they learn really early on that putting something in your mouth and swallowing it can feel bad. And so they really naturally learn to avoid some of those experiences, we can most of the kids that we work with are the more cautious, more sensitive, more observant kiddos who notice every little thing and take it really, you know, on board and take it to heart. And so they can be very cautious about new experiences eating at different people's places, they notice the difference in you know, the spaghetti that you cook versus the spaghetti that Nana cooks and all of those things. Plus, and you've got the layer of like sensory sensitivities which can be, you know, the range of those can be so huge, you can have kids who are really typically developing as such who are very sensitive to all of the tastes, textures, feel smells, the look of things, you know, they can pick ganja and out of a polonaise from 10 meters away kind of thing. And then you've got those kids who have got also, you know, other challenges in their life that mean, you know, they're much more sensitive in different ways. So there's those parts of things. There's your experience with food, in general, if you have some kind of choking incident, or you are kind of pushed into eating things. If you've had an experience where you've eaten something that felt bad, and you know, people made you eat, it can be really a number of different things. And part of our job is understanding that like what is going on for each of these kids, it's not just a case of like, here's a generic picky eater, and you just kind of tell them to do a certain thing. And that's probably my biggest frustration with advice given to people in these situations is like, Oh, you just do this being like, Oh, you just make it fun. Cut it into shapes. And you know, that'll help. It must be often. Oh, exactly. And if you've got a First Aider and someone tells you to cut something into like a smiley face, like the the rage that you feel
Fiona Weaver 07:35
is or if they just say that because I have a really fussy eater if they just say, if he's hungry, he'll eat meat. No, he won't. He actually wants, he was encouraged to feel the discomfort of starving than to eat something he feels scared of.
Dr. Kyla 07:49
And that's the difference, right? The discomfort of starving is less scary than the food. If you can think about it that way. For these kids, it's like, the easier option is to go without it's not like they are wanting to or choosing to, it's literally that they cannot do the thing that we want them to do. And that is really challenging when lots of other kids around, you can do those things right? Like, well, if you just you know, the next door neighbor just cut hers into a smiley face. Maybe that didn't work for her family. And that's fine. But like, I know that that doesn't work for our kids who legitimately have challenges with eating and need more support and time and space and all of the things.
Fiona Weaver 08:32
Yeah, I think it's just as hard for the kids to like if they have those genuine challenges to see their friends eating all sorts of things. My son one day out of nowhere, said I want to go to sushi train and I was like hills, yes, let's go to sushi train, knowing full well, he was not going to eat anything from sushi train. But we went on the adventure. We had a really lovely day, he ordered sushi that was just rice in seaweed, and he didn't eat it. And then he found a jelly cup and he ate that. But I was so excited that he wanted to do that activity. But he notices as well. He doesn't feel good about not eating what his friends eat and not having the same experiences that they do.
Dr. Kyla 09:13
How old is he now? He's seven. Yeah, and this is like, seven to 10 is really tricky age because they're aware. But they're not kids that yes, sorry. That's like the next three. They're not little kids, but they're not big kids yet, right. So they don't have any of that that rational, logical thinking that can help them through that phase with a good feeding team. Like with an 1112 year old. There's a heap of things you can do if they're motivated, but they find the challenge really tough. And with younger, a lot of things you can do from a very like play based approach in therapy and I'm not talking about parents at home by any means. But seven to 10 is a really tricky that even between they're really struggling by the little kids in the toy means and then they don't quite have the skills of either set. And that's a hard, it's a hard space to be in. But showing an interest in food and showing it interested in new foods, even though it's maybe not something he can do yet really shows how much trust he has in you know, that he can show an interest and not feel like he's going to have to act on that interest. That's like, that's so powerful. And when you're in the midst of really tricky eating, it's hard to see that as progress as a parent, like, it's really hard to know that, actually, that's a signpost you're on the right track, because it actually like it's very risky. I'll give you an example. I don't like potato, oh, this like really upsets people, right? Like, it's something I don't like wedges. And so like, it's everybody's life's mission to convince me that like, I really would like potato if I had it. And I'm like, Yeah, I've had it quite a bit like, I don't like it. And so, for me, now, if I go out with somebody, you know, for dinner, I have to be like, I don't even want to try the potato in front of them. Because if I do like it, the risk that they will be like, I like got you kind of thing. I've you know, I've I win is so high. So I actually like, probably I'm still stuck in this potato thing, more than I needed to be just because the pressure on me to learn to like it was so big. And I feel you know, I was quite fussy eater as a kid and I not as problematic as a lot of the families that I work with. But I know I remember like going to someone else's house and like, I don't like that, you know, I don't know what to do with it. I can't make myself eat it like, sure it's kind of the same, but it's not the same. And that's actually a really hard thing to deal with as a kid. Especially if your your parents or your caregivers don't understand how hard that is for
Fiona Weaver 12:08
you. Yeah, yeah, I totally understand. I remember feeling like that as a kid too. And I would just rather go without, yeah,
Dr. Kyla 12:16
yes, a lot less risky. It's a lot easier to keep yourself safe.
Fiona Weaver 12:20
It's so hard to navigate as a parent, though, because you know what your child needs nutrition wise. But when pressure or even encouragement doesn't get you any closer to the goal. It makes things worse. Most of us does. Yeah, for our son especially. It's just, we just have to back off completely. Yeah. And then he doesn't eat a lot of good food.
Dr. Kyla 12:44
It's interesting, though, because I also think there's so much pressure on us as parents to feed our kids like this herb, a nutritious diet that isn't realistic, and isn't actually what we all need. And that sounds weird coming from a dietitian. I'm not saying like, we don't want to feed our kids nutritious food, like of course we do. But I think that we've got to a point where we're, we actually know too much or know kind of the wrong things about food. And so we're also beating ourselves up or like feeling all of that guilt around, like really hasn't eaten a green vegetable for three years now. Like we haven't done the years. And actually, he's probably doing great. And there are some kids who are very, very restricted. And in which case, like we can use, there are options that that professionals can help with. But it's not up to you to have to do that or work those things out. And I really feel like there's we've gone too far with our obsession with not you absolutely. But like as a society, it's like you have to start your kids on this food and do these things and make sure you have like the most organic version of this and like actually, no,
Fiona Weaver 14:00
yeah, it's it's another area of parenting where perfectionism and anxiety Thrive Hey, yeah, as parents,
Dr. Kyla 14:08
yeah. And it ruins it like it ruins eating and teaching your kids about food when you feel like you have to always give them the most nutritious version or you have to spend your whole day thinking about what to feed them and which one and which one to choose at the supermarket. And
Fiona Weaver 14:29
yep, it is. 100% agree. We could say around every area of parenting. There's too much. There's too much. Let's just bring it back to basics. Yeah. So let's start from the beginning when people are wanting to start their baby unsalted that is the first point where it is completely overwhelming. And I remember feeling this when I first had my baby. I was like, whoa, what have I come into? What am I supposed to do? How do I start? When do I start? There's so much conflicting advice and information, especially with the four to six month mark. I understand it's from six months. That is ideal, isn't it?
Dr. Kyla 15:03
But Australian guidelines are around six months, but not before four. So we know that offering a baby solids before four months is really risky, there is a negative thing. But at health outcomes, we just don't need to do it before. Despite this, despite what yeah. Yeah, so around six months, and for most babies, it's kind of somewhere between five and six months. But essentially, what we're looking for is signs of readiness. So you want your own baby to show you that they're ready. And actually, the age is kind of just like this is when you start looking for these signs more than anything. So you want your baby to be able to hold their head up without any kind of wobbling neck or kind of flopping around with their head. And for most four month old babies, they can hold their head up, but there's still that occasional kind of flop or drop with their head, right. So we want them to be able to strongly hold their head up to lean forward, if they want something to come closer to them to turn their head away. If they don't, we want them to have reasonable core strength. So they don't need to be sitting up independently. But they do need to be able to sit with some support. And that basically means if you put them in a good highchair, they're not just going to slide down to the side or flop over the tray, they can actually hold themselves up in that position. And then we want them to be showing an interest in food in mealtimes. We want them to be watching you be interested in what you're doing when you're eating, reaching out for things trying to put, you know teething toys in their mouth. And they're the only things we really need to be aware of is like how's your baby got the actual strength to safely eat? And then do they want to eat? Are they actually showing you that that's where they're at. And for most babies, as I said, five to six months, there are some babies who are ready earlier, but it's definitely not a rush to get there. So I
Fiona Weaver 16:55
think where some of the confusion comes from is people being advised to offer allergens early, early, early. So they may start solids earlier thinking that if they introduced the allergens earlier that will be better for their babies.
Dr. Kyla 17:08
Yeah, it's, it's not true. So the guidelines are very much and from our allergy organizations are Askia are very much when your baby shows signs of readiness, that's when you can start solids. And when you start solid, you can start to introduce allergens early in that process, you know, once you've started, but there's no, no reason that we want to offer food before your baby is actually ready to start eating.
Fiona Weaver 17:33
When when you do offer those allergens? Is there any reason to when I've heard of people doing it in the hospital car park or something like that close to a GP? Is that advice? Or would you just be a little bit more flexible, but mindful? You wouldn't do it when you can.
Dr. Kyla 17:50
People do that, because they're really worried. And because they don't know what might happen. And I think that is reflective of the kind of fear that's gone into that, you know, dissemination of information about allergens, you don't need to do that. If it makes you feel better. I mean, that's your choice about you and your family. I know there's some great GPS in Perth now where they have clinics where you can come in and actually do the allergen introduction in the GP clinic, so that you feel safe about those things. But actually, our evidence is really clear that we have we've never like this is worldwide historical data out of baby die from being exposed to an allergy and having an allergic reaction in their first offerings. So I know that scary. Now, when you talk about dying, like that is obviously our big fear, right? But actually, when we're first introducing solids, as long as you're not in the middle of the desert, you know, and you can't get to medical advice or medical support, then you're absolutely okay to do it at home. I wouldn't you know what, actually, no, you can just do it at home. It is absolutely okay to do that. And yeah, be aware. The main message really is be aware but not alarmed about these things.
Fiona Weaver 19:12
Yeah. Yeah. And then let's talk about baby led weaning versus or as well as purees. Yes.
Dr. Kyla 19:21
Speaking of that one. Yeah. Yeah, like, my best advice around solids is to be led by your baby, regardless of what you feed them. So you can do baby led feeding, which can include finger foods, which is traditionally like baby led weaning, you can be led by your baby feeding them purees so that means not pushing the spoon past their lips if they don't want to really respecting their cues. But you can also do a combo of the two. You can do puree and you can do finger food, and you can follow your baby's lead and enjoy the process and that's what I teach in my memberships is like, how do we get the best of both worlds here so that our babies can have a got feeding themselves can learn some of that independence and skill with eating. And we can also offer things that we can be involved in feeding them. And we're always respecting them.
Fiona Weaver 20:20
Yeah, that's the biggest thing, hey, responding to their cues and attuning to when they're not having fun when they don't want anymore. And I find it really hard to watch people pushing the spoon past their mouth or tricking them into taking a spoonful, like how much do we need to think about food going in
Dr. Kyla 20:37
00. Like, like, we have to offer them food, right? Like, it's not okay to be like, No, zero means like, no food. Actually, like those first months, I'm really about learning. And they're about learning what to do with your body and your mouth and what the feeling is of the food and your hands and on your face and in your mouth and learning to take something off a spoon or bite something off a finger food, building confidence. You know, if I think about those kids who come into my clinic in years in the future, like this sensitive babies, the cautious babies, they need time to trust that the food is going to be okay. And it is going to be fun and, and we don't need to rush or Porsche or aim for an amount. There's no amount that you need to get your baby to eat. In fact, you never have to get your baby to eat, your baby can actually do those things. Our job is the environment and their job is always their body. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 21:39
when does that start, if it does start shifting from the focus on milk feeds to wanting to get more solids.
Dr. Kyla 21:49
There's no definite as long as you're progressing with solid. So as long as your baby uses, you know, showing more interest, having more of a go gradually taking baby steps towards eating, there's no urgent rush with any of it. Eight months would be the earliest time that I would think about swapping things around. And really like that eight to nine month mark, if your baby was showing zero interest in, in food, I'd want to be thinking like what's going on here that is making it so difficult for them. And you could swap around the order. That would probably be the earliest and that would be the earliest that I consider dropping a feed if it worked for you. And again, like, that's a tricky thing in itself, isn't it, you know, with feeds and but it becomes you can start to offer solids first at that point if you want and kind of have a milk feed later, if that works for you at that time. And it's different, obviously, like if you're doing much more demand feeding at that age, you can think about like, when would there be a time when my baby will most have an appetite for food? And it's not necessarily about withholding milk. But it's about like how do I actually make the most of what their body's telling them so that they've got a chance to learn to like this thing that I put in the highchair or whatever it is.
Fiona Weaver 23:12
Yeah, I think that's where people get a bit stuck. Sometimes if they do have an exclusively breastfed baby who they feed on demand, and who does, you know, feed throughout the day? Then? When do we get to? Yeah, put food first.
Dr. Kyla 23:30
Yeah, and there are lots of babies, we actually don't have to ever, confidently have a milk feed, and then eat a solid feed or an hour later, and that works for them. And there's actually never a time you need to proactively swap that around. And then there are babies who, for whatever reason, haven't really clicked with solids yet. And so then our job is kind of just facilitating that a little bit more, so that they have the opportunity to learn to enjoy it. You know, maybe not as much as they enjoy breastfeed, but they still have a chance to learn that it's a positive place to be.
Fiona Weaver 24:09
Yeah, okay. Can I ask as well about toddler formula? So if people are using formula in the early years, or the first year, do they need to then transfer into a toddler formula? Or can they move to cow's milk, and they don't need
Dr. Kyla 24:26
to move to a toddler formula really? Ever? Toddler formula is a it's a marketing next. So yeah, and stage two is kinda the same, right? Like there's very, very little difference between stage one and stage two for me like the idea is just that you're on the staircase somewhere and you have to go step one, and then you go step two, and then step three, and then you just continue on. No, I'm not a fan of toddler milk. Mainly it's unnecessary. It's not it's not going to cause harm. But it's expensive. And it's something that is going to take the place potentially of some food. So you can absolutely move to cow's milk. And that can be a gradual process. But you also don't need to move to cow's milk as a drink. If your family don't do that, or don't want to do that. But they're, you know, yogurt and cheese would easily meet your calcium requirements after the age of 12 months. So, milk might be a drink, but you don't need to kind of swap out breast milk into a bar, I'm sorry, cow's milk into a bottle, instead of four, I would actually think more, you know, between 12 and 18 months, I will be thinking about milk being a part of meals and snacks as opposed to milk feed. And most of our guidelines, say 12 months, like after 12 months, you don't need bottles after 12 months don't need formula. And that's fine. But up until 12 months, like it's a huge part of your baby's life. So to then at 12 months be like, Okay, we're done. That just feels really blunt, I think for lots of families, like how do I just remove this thing that has essentially kept my child thriving, you know, in the last year. So that can be a process like there's nothing magical that happens on that first. That means you need to, you know, the next day, stop offering. So it can be
Fiona Weaver 26:18
Yeah, it's also a really nice part of a bedtime routine, or, you know, just a nice chance to connect during the day if people are giving bottles and things. So it's it's Yeah, but there's more to it than just having a drink of milk isn't 100%? Yeah. So how this is something that people struggle with all the time, myself included? How do we talk about foods with our kids? I feel like this is such a big topic. But how do we talk about foods without allowing our kids to have you know, sweets and things full day, but not making them good versus bad? And you know, what I'm asking the question,
Dr. Kyla 27:04
I think we do less talking in general, a lot of us feel the pressure or the need to educate our kids about healthy choices. And actually, our kids learn from what we do, not what we say. So the most important thing we can do is like eat a variety of food with our kids without trying to teach them a lesson. And to be fair, I feel like the teaching a lesson thing is has been a big kind of part of my parenting journey is actually a lot of these things will happen. I don't need to teach an overt lesson, my child is learning all the time. And so I would actually encourage you to speak less about food, if you are speaking about food, be very factual in terms of like, what it's called, like, this is cake or this is broccoli, or this is a banana. As opposed to like, this is a healthy food. This is an unhealthy food or this is a treat, or this is an everyday food. Like those things, I mean actually aren't true. Because, okay, broccoli, like is an everyday food and on our you know, random classification, but it's not healthy to eat broccoli at every meal, either. You don't have to subsist in it, you need other foods in your diet, it really is all about variety. And so our kids learn about things like lollies and cakes and biscuits based on the way we talk about them the way we eat, rather than the health message we're trying to tell them and in fact, trying to limit a child what a child ate is by telling them that it's not an everyday food or that it's a unhealthy food or that it's got too much sugar, all those things create huge confusion. Because we're saying to a child, this is actually a bad thing. But I'm gonna give it to you. And I want you to make a choice about it kind of as you get older, like it's very, very murky, right. And the same way, if you have if you're teaching kids like this is a healthy food, and this is an unhealthy food. And then their grandma gives them the unhealthy food. That is a real conflict for kids to work out like so my family is giving me something bad. Like how do I how do I reconcile this? It doesn't make sense. And so our messaging is very black and white, but we've got kids who are very black and white thinkers too, and it doesn't match up. So I would actually just know that your kids learn that at most meals, you have vegetables or at for breakfast, we have these foods and that's another example like in different cultures. You have different things for breakfast, right? It feels odd for me to eat noodles at breakfast in the same way that it would feel odd for others to eat toast at breakfast, but my mom didn't ever have to sit me down and say rice is not a breakfast food, cereal is a breakfast food, right? Nobody actually has to overtly say that I just learned from what my family does, right. And those are powerful messages that's kids are going to go through periods of fasting Earth, they're going to go through periods of rebellion. You if you think about early teens at the shops, like they've got a bit of pocket money, they're going to be buying a range of,
Fiona Weaver 30:24
you know, Chip, monster drinks on the way to school 100%.
Dr. Kyla 30:29
And like, I actually think the more we try and do, or say or explain, actually, the more problematic that becomes, and the more it becomes that forbidden fruit or that forbidden food that we now think about all the time. And as adults. And I think for all of us growing up in diet culture central in the 80s, and 90s. Like, we all think that you can't, you know, eat as much chocolate as you want, and then stop, like none of us were ever taught that you could listen to your body and just eat enough and then move on with your life. We all feel like, I can't have chocolate in the house, because then I will eat it all. You know, we haven't, we've got very different messages. And that's, that's probably the biggest fear, I think, for us as parents is like, if I give my kids these foods, and I don't give them a lesson about it, they're going to want to eat them all the time. And I don't believe that they will. I believe that, yes, kids really enjoy those kind of typically titled junk foods. And that's fine. They're delicious, like, cool. But were in charge of the meals and the menu. And what we offer the most of the time is what our kids learn and take with them into their
Fiona Weaver 31:45
what are some of the risks later on in life or even now, when we talk about good bad foods, healthy, unhealthy, trying to restrict foods and things? What does that mean for our teenagers?
Dr. Kyla 31:57
Yeah, like, what it means for our teenagers is exactly what's happening at the moment. 1/3 of Australian adolescents have some form of disordered eating a third of adolescents that it makes me want to cry to think that, yeah, so many kids already think that there's something wrong with the food, there's something wrong with them, there's something wrong with their body. And that they have to control it and manipulate it and do these things that are disordered eating, right, essentially, like controlling or restricting their intake, trying to diet trying to overexercise, all the things to kind of compensate. And so that starts really early. And what I want us to be able to do is actually remove the morality from the messages about food, like there isn't a bad food, there isn't a good food, it is just food, we can still make decisions based on adult thinking brains, like what are we going to have for dinner, like, we're not going to have lollies for dinner, we're going to have, you know, whatever it is that your family has. But that's like that, on a fairly basic level, we can make those decisions as adults, I don't expect kids to be able to make those decisions based on the way their brain is developing at a young age, like actually making healthy choices are usually about like, chronic health, right? Like, I won't eat this so I don't get osteoporosis or so I don't get cancer when I'm in my 60s, like those are not decisions that our kids are making. And the only reason that they're making them, if they're making them is to please us, right? I'm so proud of you, you made a healthy choice. And like that is a gateway to big problems. Because if you eat to please another person, you're on a slippery slope of like, what is this mean about me? I did a good thing when I did that. What does that mean about me? If I then ate a biscuit like i did i do a bad thing now is that am I a better that is? I'll do that in private? I will do that in private, right? And then if that hasn't given you goosebumps thinking like, imagine if my child is like secretly eating in their bedroom, or they're feeling like they need to, like cover up the evidence. Those things are red flags for us as parents that actually we're seeing this shame and guilt coming into eating and we need to do something now to wipe that slate clean. It's scary stuff. Yeah, it is. It is I don't want to scare people in like, if you have a child who is you know, secretly eating or you know that they're taking things serious as an early sign like okay, what can we actually do to get back onto a neutral ground here like time, it actually means having those foods more often, more openly, without any commentary, without any kind of judgment? And those little things do creep into our language, right? Because that's like I remember my grandma was saying to me like if Elijah, I'll still love you when you're fat, fat fat. And that was like, like If I didn't know, that was daring little, he's right. But those little comments, oh, you must have hollow legs. Or where do you even put that all, when you eat in all of these little comments, I like the judgey right there, like, I don't think you're doing what your body should be doing, I don't think you're making a healthy choice. So we really want to try and get rid of that and actually be quite neutral about food, which is so difficult because we're in an environment or a society where we talk about food all the time, we are obsessed with sugar, we're obsessed with protein. And we're obsessed with vegetables, like we talk about these things way more than we need to. And that feeds into them is messaging that were accidentally passing on to our kids. So it takes I think our generation is having to make a conscious decision to do it differently. Based on what we know now. And actually, I think our biggest concern is about disordered eating in the future.
Fiona Weaver 36:04
And that's a lot of pressure on this generation. But to know that we aren't going to make these, you know, enormous changes, we are just starting the change that can take some of that pressure off.
Dr. Kyla 36:17
Absolutely. And like we are just starting to do things differently and understand it, and we are never going to get it perfect. Like I am never going to get it perfect with my own kids around food. And that's okay. It's just like, what do you actually want them to learn? What do you want them to do? And we can start using different language or start feeling trusting their bodies more? Yeah, and essentially, that's what I teach in family mealtimes as well, that that's the next step in our programs is like, how do we actually help parents to feel good about this?
Fiona Weaver 36:51
I think that's that's the flip, though, isn't it to help our kids to tune into their own bodies and how things make them feel and when they feel full? And when they feel hungry? And what they could go for? That's the that's the flipping the message, isn't it?
Dr. Kyla 37:05
Absolutely. And it brings up a lot of stuff for us, because it makes us realize, like, I don't really do that for myself, or I haven't got the skills to do that. And I it's never too late, like you can absolutely start to live like that. Now, and you'll never get it right, perfectly right. But you can be changing all
Fiona Weaver 37:24
the time. There's a there's a lot of unpacking we need to do. As humans before we can do this with our kids. I think that's the biggest thing that a lot of parents have this history with eating and diet culture.
Dr. Kyla 37:39
And I think they currently like you can be unpacking some of your things and using different language with your kids. But it will feel hard for a while.
Fiona Weaver 37:49
Uncomfortable. And it's also another place where we can feel like a bad mom. Yeah, really like looking at the perfect Mom myth. What does a good mom look like to you? A good mom has a good eater. And this is the language that you hear about babies and kids. Oh, God is a good either.
Dr. Kyla 38:05
Yeah. And it makes you feel good as
Fiona Weaver 38:07
a parent. And when
Dr. Kyla 38:08
you have a good eater, in inverted commas, like a lot of the time, we think that I must have done something well. And if somebody else doesn't have a good eater, like, that must have been something they missed out. And yeah, it is not true. And you can do all of the right things technically, and still have challenges. And that's normal. Yeah, it's, it's a big,
Fiona Weaver 38:34
big topic, isn't it?
Dr. Kyla 38:36
Sure. parents haven't necessarily thought about what food means to them or reflected on what their experience of food is like. And so when you have a kid brings up all this learning, doesn't it that you have to think about like, do I want my kids to have the same experience with their body as I had with mine, or as I'm having with mine? And then to like realize, oh, maybe I don't like maybe what I'm doing is not what I want to model to them. That's like that brings up heaps of stuff.
Fiona Weaver 39:10
Yes, absolutely. And that's hard work from us to
Dr. Kyla 39:12
his hard work. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 39:15
Yeah. If we do have a fussy eater or a picky eater, at what point do we seek help with that? Or what are some common fussy eating times for our kids in their development?
Dr. Kyla 39:27
Yeah, so that the most common time that this kind of emerges is between kind of 12 and 18 months, we start to see this, you know, big change into toddler eating from Baby eating, and babies are usually fairly receptive to different flavors and textures. They're kind of more open to it, then they probably will be for the next six to eight years. Which, you know, when we hit toddlerhood feels like, something's gone backwards or, you know, something's gone wrong, and actually it hasn't. It's a very normal part of their development at that age. The growth slows down appetite slows down, they're walking, they're talking, they're moving. You know, there's lots of stuff happening for young toddlers. And they're also, you know, having this big development in their sensory system. So they're aware of bits on their food, they're aware of the difference between a crust and a bit of the middle part of the bread, you know, they bothered by green foods, and they're, you know, they prefer things that are easy and consistent and predictable,
Fiona Weaver 40:24
like predictable watching things that come out of pockets. Yeah, things are the same every single time and
Dr. Kyla 40:30
are the same. Absolutely. Because once you trust that once, you don't have to spend a lot of energy, assessing the risk, right? You like when the bread comes out of the packet. And sometimes our toddlers will go to a more extreme level, and they'll be very specific about brands. So only that brand of that yogurt, I know does have lumps and won't trick me. And so I look for the blue packet with a red lid. And you know, that's what saved for me. So it can get quite extreme, you know, for lots of kids. That's the biggest one. And then essentially, kind of between two and eight, it's a bit of a roller coaster, there are times when you'll think, wow, we're really getting somewhere like he's showing an interest, he's had a bite of views, he's tried beers, we've added a few new foods, and then you might lose them, well, then you might lose something else. And it kind of goes up and down. It ebbs and flows, you know, over the next six years or so. Until we kind of get to the next phase for most kids who haven't had significant challenges eating where they start to naturally be more adventurous, more trusting more able to kind of have a go and make up their mind, you know about that food again. And I definitely I can see us in that phase with my almost six year old like, she probably would have been a kid on my caseload, you know, had I not known all the things that I knew. And I feel like we're only just starting to come out of that real, you know, Bay stage. She's, she has, she has sauce on a spaghetti sometimes she adds it herself. Like it's always served as an option. And she can choose how much she wants. But she's never, ever wanted to do that before. And now she's in this next kind of, maybe I will try that. And, you know, we're all trying to be kind of cool and not add pressure. Yeah, so those they're really typical phases, I guess.
Fiona Weaver 42:20
So. So if you had a daughter, and we still have a daughter, but if your daughter has been beige specific for a little while, as a dietitian, and knowing what you know, how much do you How much do you worry about that, or just let it be and offer her beige food with options? Yeah, I
Dr. Kyla 42:40
don't worry about that at all. And that, I think, is the most freeing thing. And honestly, that's what I try and impart for the families that I work with is like, it's actually not your job to get your toddler to eat broccoli. Like, if you enjoy broccoli, that's awesome. Serve it, you know, keep it coming, have it available, she can learn about it, but she never has to eat it. And she will, you know, own time. And now, you know, there are things she ate spicy chicken fairly recently. And like on my Mother's Day card, that's what it said, Mom, I love you. And I love your spicy chicken. And I was like, wow, like, this is a kid who I have washed sauce of her chicken for years, right, like actually under running water, have washed it off, if that's part of what she needed. And even then she probably didn't need it all the time. But we're playing along that, like I'm teaching her that she can trust her body. She can learn to like food in our own time. I'll be there to support her. But it's not a it's not a battle for us. And then from a nutrient point of view, I have really very few concerns because she eats an okay variety. There's a few from each food group, she eats enough fruit, you know, to meet most of the kind of vegetable nutrient requirements, I know that our guidelines are set on what meets the needs of 97.5% of the population. So actually, there's 97.5% of kids less than that, who won't need that much of particular things. You know, like, we're all obsessed with protein and most Australian kids get about four times the protein that they actually need. So, yeah, like there's big discrepancies between what is and what isn't. And it's hard because most Australian kids don't eat as many vegetables as I recommended in our population guidelines. But this is like a big population guideline that doesn't take into account the nuances of what your kid does eat. And so it's, it's kind of not like I don't want us to be comparing ourselves to all these, you know, guidelines that don't actually assess what's going on for our kids. You know, some kids are going to eat lots, some kids need more, some kids are going to eat less they need less. If your child is generally growing, thriving developing great if you've got concerns like checking with the GP 100%, work out what's going on. If you need to get some support from a program like mine, you can do that. If you need some more support from a feeding team, there are lots of brilliant ones. Australia wide, for example, and they can really help you unpack what is happening here? And what can we work towards what is feasible for this child? And you know, in this situation with these challenges, so, yeah, I don't think we ever have to just feel rubbish about it.
Fiona Weaver 45:36
But you liberating, because as you were talking about that story with the spaghetti that your daughter now put sauce on her spaghetti. So my son, if he had his way would have plain pasta with butter and salt every single night. Yeah. And sometimes I say, get we're having plane pass. And then other times I'm saying, we're having spaghetti bolognese. And he has the minced meat in there. And I put it on the side. So he's more than welcome to just, you know, eat around it. Every now and then he'll mix it in. No. Every now and then I will mix it in and he will eat it reluctantly, but he will be upset about it. And I won't make him but I might best dinner, I've already mixed it. But in my in my heart, I sometimes feel a lot of guilt, because I think about how he will look back on these days and think all I wanted was playing fucking pastor. And that's just like, why would you just not give it to me? Like, I don't know how much I meaning I attach to that. Do you know what I mean?
Dr. Kyla 46:39
Absolutely. It's tricky. Because if you do offer your kids something in exactly the same way all the time, there is actually a risk that they like, get so over that, that they don't want to eat it anymore. And then you have you lose that right? Yeah, lose that. That's a challenge. So I think that's something we're kind of weighing up. But I wonder if that could look slightly differently in that, if, like, you can serve different types. I don't know how tolerant he is, but like spaghetti monster, right? With different types of Cheney versus bow ties versus spirals, like all of those help for variety. Adding the sauce that can be mixed in is awesome. And I guess for all of us, it's about pitching, like, Is that a challenge for him? Or is that just too hard? Because if it's too hard, and he's literally weighing out like, do I go hungry? Or do I eat this thing that feels too challenging, it's not usually laying down and positive neural pathway about that food, right? It's actually do you know, if you've ever watched the Viber, and you've watched the meetings, some of those, you know,
Fiona Weaver 47:41
what holding challenges, like,
Dr. Kyla 47:44
it's not that they're learning to light, but it's foods at that time, it's like, I have to get this down to like, achieve the challenge, you know, whatever. We kind of want to not feel like we have to set that up for our kids. So I think the way that you can have it so that they can mix it in, and they still have an opportunity to learn to like it. Like that's very different to just having played pastor every night, right? And still giving you the opportunity. But also if you've got time pastor as your go to, but also sometimes they'll like wraps our job and particularly in the way that I teach it is that our job is to mix it up and be in charge of the menu so that they are not dictating that, like, we will just have plain pasta every night or I will just have lollies every time I want something. So we are still in charge of that. And our job is to mix it up where we can. But for some kids, that is actually all they have. And so that does have to come alongside what you're eating as a family and they are still learning. But I agree like you don't have to fix. Yeah, you don't have to feel like you are pushing them along. And that's so hard because there's such a fine line, like, between ignoring it, you know, playing into it, or trying to push them out of it.
Fiona Weaver 49:01
Yes, it is. It's a really hard dance the dance, isn't it? I think like approaches just to offer we always offer never pressure. But it just it doesn't seem to have that. You know, my daughter's so different. She will. If she has opportunities. She'll eventually try it on her own time and on her own terms. And she'll say, oh, actually do like that. Whereas my son can not be. He just won't go there. Yeah, so we won't go there yet.
Dr. Kyla 49:29
Do you know like, eventually is still there still time? Raccoon? Absolutely. Yeah. And it's hard because when you have a child who eats differently and like better than their sibling, it's really hard to not. Why does this work for her and not for him?
Fiona Weaver 49:49
I think it's actually validating more than anything. Yeah, because I remember when Yeah, it's not us and when he was a toddler and they would say oh he'll eat whatever everyone else is eating at kindy And I thought he won't. He probably won't, but I hope that he does. He still didn't he would still ask for a Vegemite sandwich. And or he would just not eat. Yeah. And still, yeah, if if other people are eating different things, he will still not peer pressure doesn't do anything for him. Yeah, and maybe
Dr. Kyla 50:19
it doesn't now, but all the things that you were doing all that no pressure offering all of the chance to be part of family meals, to see those things, to show an interest in food and not be kind of held to it. You know, same like any of the prep 70 of the making food, even if he doesn't want to eat it, all those things are paving a pathway. That means in the future, he can step into that new role of like, maybe I will learn to like this. And you've you've set that up now. And it's just kind of maintaining that which is hard, because it gets frustrating after a while, like after all you want to eat it does eat it. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 50:56
yeah, yeah, that's exactly what happens. And sometimes we're like doing everything, you know, in our power to not pressure and to just offer and let him you know, find his own way. And then other times that you have to eat, like, you can't just not eat anything, you can't end, especially when they change their mind on something. But you've always had to get rid of that.
Dr. Kyla 51:18
But I think it's also easier to see those things then see little signs of progress, right? Like, it's easy to, like, now we've lost this, but like, actually, do we also now have green apple and red apple that we didn't have? Like, those little things are still, uh, still signposts that, you know, things are sticking? Yeah, that's true. And that's where I think like a team is a really helpful investment because they notice those things. And you can make small tweaks and like, I don't think you generally need to do this if your kid is, you know, typically developing eater, but when you get into the stage of really selective eating, like there are tiny things that you can do that really help and yeah, it's yeah, it's a really, it's exhausting. And also, Mealtimes are so often like this is, ya know, you can't just not do it, meals, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, you've got snap people's houses, you've got holidays, like there is a lot to think about. And I don't think if you haven't had a fussy eater, you don't, it's really hard to understand the extremists of it.
Fiona Weaver 52:25
And the mental load that comes with having a fussy eater, and thinking about, you know, you don't want to over scaffold and protect them from challenging things like, like when you said school camps before our cycle. I haven't even thought about that. But that would be a significant challenge for my son, I mean, school camps at all. But to be in an environment where he has absolutely zero impact on what is served. He would starve. And so I would want to set him up for success and kind of scaffold him enough to help him to feel supported without rescuing. From a hard situation
Dr. Kyla 53:03
really tricky. And also if like their answer pod supportive teachers or their kids who are also going to look out for him or like it's
Fiona Weaver 53:15
Yeah, yeah. So a lot to think about. So Kyla, where can people find you let let us know about your offerings and your memberships and all the
Dr. Kyla 53:24
good stuff? Sure. And you can find me, I'm on Instagram, Dr. Underscore, Kyla is my handle there. And that's where I'm kind of sharing the day to day stuff. And if you would like to work with me, I guess it for me to help with some of these things. And I would love to invite you to join my membership so you can find the information on mealtimes.com.au. And so that basically encompasses the baby mealtimes, the toddler mealtimes and the family mealtimes. And then based on really age, so baby, kind of 12 months and younger and then toddlers kind of one to four. And then family mealtimes is school aged kids, so four plus. And you'll also find some info about school meal times on there, which is my advocacy arm, which we probably didn't really talk about, but it's about how do we work with parents, teachers and schools? How do we actually work all together to create safe eating environments at school? So that's another part of it. But yeah, if you'd like to work with me, I'd love to see you the membership options. There are multiple options for each one.
Fiona Weaver 54:30
Amazing. I've heard such good things about your membership. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. I'm sure that lots of people will be very excited to hear this episode and have lots more questions and need lots more support. So I know that your memberships will be a really good offering for those people. So thank you so much for your time. No
