The unseen mental labour of motherhood: Inviting your partner to share the load with Dr Elyse McNeill, PhD
Have you heard of mental labour? It's all of the thinking, organising, planning, management, emotional work that underpins all of the aspects of family life, household life, everything related to our children.
And for women especially - it's a lot.
Dr Elyse McNeil has been a clinical psychologist for nearly a decade and has recently completed a PhD on the topic of mental labour. Through her work at Share to Thrive she is creating education and information for couples to significantly improve the way they manage mental labour and improve their relationship. She lives on the beautiful Gold Coast with her husband and little boy.
Today we chat about:
- What is mental labour and why does it fall moreso on the shoulders of women?
- How can we help our partners to understand the mental load?
- How can we have productive and respectful conversations around mental labour without inviting defensiveness or conflict?
- What are some practical ways that we can better share the mental labour?
- What are some systems we can put in place to make things feel a little more fair?
Note that this research was conducted on heterosexual couples and more research is required to apply to all families.
Dr Elyse's brand new course Share to Thrive is available now and she has kindly gifted our Mama Chatters listeners with a 25% discount using code MMLISTENERS.
https://mentallabour.sharetothrive.com/
Hey Mama, I have a Sleep Guide for you! For birth to 18 months, this guide is steeped in evidence and laced with compassion. And you can download the first chapter absolutely free HERE.
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As always, thanks for being here- if you enjoy this poddy I would LOVE if you could give a rating and a review. It means the world to me.
xx
TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:09
Hello love and welcome to the Manage chatters podcast. If you're keen to ditch all of the parenting shoulds and want to uncomplicate sleep and parenting, you are in the right place, through honest conversations with experts and each other, we will help you to cut through all of the noise and to love the heck out of your imperfect and authentic parenting. I'm Fiona, a social worker by trade. Now supporting families with sleep and parenting through my business mama matters. I'm passionate about parenting psychology, biologically normal infant sleep and infant mental health and attachment. I'm also a parent and I am on a mission to normalize the shitshow that can be parenthood.
Fiona Weaver 00:48
I know that right now you might be trapped under a sleeping baby. Or maybe you've got your headphones in to soften the blue of the afternoon witching hour, wherever and whoever you are, I want you to know that you belong here. Now, let's have a chat.
Fiona Weaver 01:04
Hello, my love's it's so lovely to be back here with you. Again, I hope you've had a nice week. I have the best chat for you today. And you know, I always start with I'm so excited. But I really am so excited about this one that this is about mental labor, the emotional load. And this is with Elise, Dr. Elise McNeil, and she actually has a PhD in emotional labor. So she is the girl to speak to about this. And I love this chat because it is not a us versus them. It's a really collaborative approach to working with our loved ones on how we can reduce some of our mental load share the load so it feels fair and not necessarily 5050 equal but it feels satisfying for both parts of the relationship. So Dr. Elise McNeil has been a clinical psychologist for nearly a decade, and she's recently completed a PhD on the topic of mental labor. Through her work at Share to thrive she is creating education and information for couples to significantly improve the way they've managed mental labor and improve their relationship. She lives on the beautiful Gulf Coast with her husband and her little boy. And Elise has recently just launched her own course on sharing the emotional labor with your partner. And this looks amazing she has let me in and I am perusing as we speak. But she's also given listeners 25% of the cost too. So if you are interested, I will put in the show notes the link to Elise's website share to thrive and her course. And if you use the code M M listeners, you will get 25% of the total cost. So that is amazing. Thank you so much Elise. Enjoy our chat, I know you will, you'll be sending this to all of your friends. Hello, Elise, welcome to the party. I am so excited to have you here today. And I know that all of my followers are super, super keen on this one. So welcome. Thank you, I'm excited to be here. Do you want to start off by letting us know who you are, who's in your family and how you came to do this work. So I'm a clinical psychologist have been in the game for nearly a decade now. And I've also just recently completed Finally, after four years a PhD on the topic of mental load. In that time, I've gotten married, but in sort of her house relocated, had my little boy and put all this into practice in a really big way. So I have been doing the research and doing the clinical work and very much living this topic as well.
Fiona Weaver 03:33
I'm really curious as to how you got into this area of research before you had
Fiona Weaver 03:40
a child because I know the mental load is forever. But I feel like it really comes to a head the wheels fall off when you are organizing a family.
Dr Elyse McNeill 03:49
Yeah, it was definitely a professional interest. First and foremost. You know, my honors a master's theses at uni, we're all focused on issues that predominantly affect women. So body image disorders and some other things around partnering with neurodivergent men. And so I've always been super curious about these kinds of topics and why women are disadvantaged, or why these issues aren't looked at in the same way as some other things. And so mental load definitely fit in that category for me, and that was part of the interest. And clinically, I was seeing so many women who were returning to work or, you know, at various phases of their kind of post, having a child life and describing equal partnerships where they really both value that and we're trying to work towards that. But the cognitive load for them, the burnout, the overwhelm was just huge. And this is going back to the 567 years. So before, you know a more common and broader understanding of mental load was around before it was something we were really discussing a lot. And so I kind of went looking to try and understand this more, found some of the older research started to see the blog topics and you know, the podcasts and all these sorts of things that we're getting at this age.
Dr Elyse McNeill 04:59
year, but realize there just wasn't any academic research that really kind of dived into how does this look for couples? How do we end up here? You know, do we have any insights on how to improve it? And so thought, I thought about a PhD, and I think this is it. And from there just saw an even more in my own friends lives as they started to have families themselves. So more and more of my clinical work. And yeah, here we are.
Fiona Weaver 05:24
Wow. Well, it's such a great topic to research because as you said, it's, it's only in the recent years that I've started hearing more about it using the term even, I think the first time I got to know the term and what it meant was when that I can't remember who it was by but the comic that came up, Mr. Yeah, yeah. Yes, the French comic, I'll link it in the show notes. But that was really eye opening, and something that was shared far and wide as well.
Dr Elyse McNeill 05:55
Absolutely. It's certainly not a new phenomenon. I mean, women have been struggling this fit with this for eons.
Dr Elyse McNeill 06:01
But I think the interface of work and family is different. And so the intensity of this as a problem has become more and more pronounced. And thank goodness, we've kind of caught up and started attaching language to this, because that's obviously so important. We need to be able to label and identify what this actually is that is eating away at us and kind of adding to all the pressures we're already experiencing. And from there, we can start to figure out how to solve it, but being able to identify it and know what it is and have the language is so critical.
Fiona Weaver 06:31
So can you explain to us what is the mental load for somebody who has never heard of it before? What does mental load mean?
Dr Elyse McNeill 06:38
Yeah, so at a definition level, the mental load is there thinking, organizing, planning, management, emotional work, that underpins all of the aspects of family life, household life, everything related to our children. An example though, I think, really, really highlights it. So if you take the example of who cooks dinner, often couples will have that debate, right? Who's cooking dinner tonight? Or whose task is that to do? What we forget, though, is all of the thinking work, the mental load that underpins being able to do that actual task. So you need to make a decision for one about what you're going to have. And the things that inform that decision are things like, where are we at budget wise? What have we got to spend on groceries, what's available in the pantry? How much time do we have to cook, we all know with kids, their tastes, preferences, or developmental food needs change all the time. So we're weighing that up as well. We're thinking about what time dinner needs to be on the table, depending on work schedules, extracurricular activities, like there is actually so much that goes into, yeah, I'm going to be the person who cooks the dinner. So if we don't take into account that mental work, the mental load, we really miss a big piece of the puzzle. And so extrapolate that across all aspects. Like I said, it goes on with tasks related to raising our children managing the household more broadly. But there's always this largely invisible thinking work that has to go on before that task is able to be executed. I think it's important to flag not all of that's problematic, and most of it is pretty necessary. We just have to do it for our families to function, let alone thrive and really flourish. So it's not all always problematic. But I guess what I've been interested in is where it becomes difficult where it becomes burdensome.
Fiona Weaver 08:19
This typically falls more on the shoulders of women. Shoulders, that's what the research shows. Yeah.
Dr Elyse McNeill 08:25
It does consist by it's a great question. The easiest answer, I think, is socio cultural practices in history. Caregiving has been the domain of women forever. And caregiving has been very classically undervalued. Feminism, and, you know, theory, theoretical and practices around addressing those systemic issues have been really important in progressing these issues getting us to really recognize as a society, what goes on when we don't value care work. But I think that's the background here is if you think about your mother, you think about your grandmother, what you see is a direct lineage of women doing most of this and particularly being at the forefront of the thinking work as it relates to children and raising our children. We're in a different space and time now, most couples need to both work. That's the reality of the kind of economic environment most of us are in, in very varying formations. We've got women starting to out earn men at increasing numbers that we really haven't seen in past decades. So there used to be a lot of economic argument that was relied upon, not necessarily consciously, but as part of couples decision making. If you know, in that classic setup, he earned more and she earned less. The decision making was well it makes sense for you to be at home or part time because we need to maximize my capacity to generate resources for us as a family, which is well and good until that point where the overall load is just not working. The couple of dynamic is a problem. We see relationships falter Mmm is a leading source of conflict is how you manage not just the mental load, but their physical load. So we know it has an impact on individuals, their well being couple well being. But we know that the reason why a lot of this happens is historic practices around who does the caregiving, how that's valued. And then the interplay with that at a societal level. So I think that's the why that's the best answer. There's a good answer is no biological factors.
Fiona Weaver 10:26
No, no, I know. And it's really hard as well as that. Because, you know, you can, you can consciously try to push back against some of the this cultural conditioning, but it's so it's so built into us and in all of society and culture, cultures, expectations, as well, it's really, I find that personally really hard to push back against the matter how hard I try, it's so easy for me to fall back into that martyrdom, that taking over everything, and then resenting everyone for it for having to do all the work.
Dr Elyse McNeill 10:59
And I know you've had a wonderful interview, I think, with Dr. Sophie Brock around intensive mothering, and this is so relevant here as well, because this is part of what goes on for women. And to be frank part of what other women hold women to and, you know, perpetuates this problem down the line. So I think there's a really big piece there of us as women, supporting other women to break free of this for ourselves and for society more broadly. But you know, the other day I was talking to somebody who was telling me their mother in law had messaged them after Christmas, with her parents details to send a thank you for the gift the child had received for Christmas, right? I just was really struck by that, that she didn't ask her own son, she asked her daughter in law to send this thank you for gift that wasn't asked for and it was very generously given. But that even that as an example, is, I think really typifies this problem that it goes on between us, it goes on down the generation lines, and it goes on within us. And they're the the fronts that we kind of have to push back on. And that's why it's hard. And that's why it's taking time.
Fiona Weaver 12:04
Yeah. And it's also because it's it's not necessarily very, what's the word attractive to your partner necessarily to try to push back because that, that is shaking up their world as well. I don't mean attractive, as in, you know, on a personal level, but that's not exciting for them to potentially shake all that
Dr Elyse McNeill 12:26
up. Really what you're saying? Is your loads about to increase quite a bit. Yeah, you know, that you're, you know, things are gonna look really differently. Yeah. And it's an interesting point, because one thing that really struck me in my research is I had a mix of participants, couples, who I interviewed in depth about how this went, how this was going for them. And these were couples who at the start of the interview, might not have had any idea about mental load, but there was kind of an education and exploration piece, both of them Yeah, often more than male partner had that unfamiliarity. Women are much more across it, because we're talking about it between ourselves and in the media we consume. So it's on our radar, because we're living it. Men are lagging a little bit in their understanding, though, it's certainly coming. And so yeah, couples were in these various sort of understanding or comprehension levels about this topic, but we'd explore where it was at. And it was couples who were managing it pretty well. Through just their own ways of relating, and others were obviously it was a really big problem. And I think what was interesting is, as that education progressed, the couples who had a real team mate, where we're working and pulling in the same direction, how can we support each other so that we all thrive? That was such a common factor in couples where it was better managed, or where they were more open to changes, seeing it as a shared kind of a shared overall perspective of the labor that was required both mental and physical. And going, I totally get that you've had such a greater load, and that how can we be a thriving team? If you're weighed down like that? That was something that really struck me.
Fiona Weaver 14:02
So yeah, it's not a competition. It's not sort of tit for tat. It's yeah. And so I put out to my community, what do you want to know, from police about the mental load? Because I knew it'd be a big one. And probably 60% of the questions were, how do I get my partner to understand this? Or how do I explain this to my partner? How do I talk to my partner about this without inviting his defensiveness or without feeling like I'm nagging or having a go? Or just all of that, like, how do we approach this with our partners?
Dr Elyse McNeill 14:32
It's a brilliant question. And something I've been thinking about extensively from the beginning of my research, because it really is the core issue. The core first issue, at least is how do you get your partner to understand because until they do, it's really, really difficult to get sharing to occur any differently. I've just finished developing a course entirely built around answering this question, because I think it's complex although I think this some simple tips I can certainly give you to get started. But really working through this systemically is one of the best ways because there's an education piece, there's your own kind of histories and stories that need a bit of unpacking, there's the dynamic and how you communicate this, how you navigate conflict, how well you can have difficult conversations. So there's all of that there. But I think one of the best starting places is getting really clear on your own mental load. And working through particular examples of that. So I've got a free download on my website, which I'll, you know, you can potentially pop up and link to, and that walks you through that. And I think that's a great exercise to do with your partner, because it'll encourage them to do the same. Something I found helpful is when men can kind of grasp this in their mental load they carry because an important thing here is it's not that men don't carry mental load, they absolutely do. The volume is different. So one example that struck me, a participant kind of flagged was in my research was around the mowing of the lawn. And he was like, Well, I've got to think about things like what's the weather doing? Because I can't know if it's just rained or the middle of the day, it's really hot. Or if the kids are napping, it's no good. Got to make sure the oils in there. You know, I've got to get the frequency right. Does it need some? I don't know what one's top dressing or whatever. That that lately, so I thought my Yeah, topsoil. So they're helping men identify the mental load they do, I think is an important part, because then they can start to go, oh, yeah, I see how sometimes I find that tricky. Finances is another big one. So in couples where there might be a more traditional split of work, paid work outside of the home and work inside the home. Men in that situation, often are the ones who carry a level of financial mental load that they can find really tricky. We've got these expenses, am I supporting her enough? Emotionally, but I'm only there so much because I need to work? And what about that promotion. And so all of that is mental load as well. So I think both of you sitting down once there's an explanation in psycho Ed around psychoeducation is unfortunate clinical term that I've just shown. Just really use explicating, the details of that as a concept. It's a big part of the course, too, is I really work hard to explain that to both of you, because it's more mental load when you have to explain it to your partner. But it was another one that came up. Yeah, I think in the early phases, it's unavoidable To be frank, that you do have to do a bit of educating because you're the one who gets it. But I've got some ideas around how you can not have that been ongoing challenge. But yeah, so in the first instance, outlining the concept, getting them to understand by giving a really detailed explanation of your mental load, getting them to work to identify some of theirs. And then having really conscious conversations between the two of you, where you're outlining not only your mental load, but how it feels for you to carry that load, and really trying to deep dive here if you can, of what that's like for you. So. So once you've both identified the mental load examples that work for each of you, you want to really dive below that, and start to figure out and explain to your partner where the problem is for you, or what your experience of ease of carrying that mental load. So take the finances, like we were just talking about, that's obviously a big part of getting your family life to flourish and go well and to survive, you know, in many instances, so the heaviness of that if there's spending that's unaccounted for, or there's not consideration, or you're not kind of being on the same team about recognizing the value of that thinking work. The burden, the stress, the anxiety that you might experience when your partner remains unaware or, you know, not really valuing that work, that becomes difficult. So I think if you can drop down a level, and explain how it feels for you to carry that load, where the problems are, at that deeper feeling level, I think that really helps partners grasp that as well. Because in loving relationships, they don't want to see you struggling and overwhelmed and burnt out. They want you to be doing well and not feeling like that. So if you can get to that level, I think that gets around the neck feeling and that critical feeling because you're anchoring it in your experience.
Fiona Weaver 19:18
That is something that we always feel like we are doing or, you know, even if we have handed over ownership of a task or a thought or consideration to our partners. How can we not? How can we not interfere?
Dr Elyse McNeill 19:36
There's two parts to that. Part one is when you do the handover of the task, I really encourage you to have a deep conversation about the standard. So don't do that kind of on the fly, take the time to make that conversation are considered one. So you both agree what constitutes that task being done, what's included, what's the frequency? I know it's super unsexy. But if you take the time for that to be really detailed, what it does is stops you having to as consciously monitor and holding your head? Did they do that part of it? You know, do I need to follow up? When are they going to actually do it. So it can't be a dictatorship, you know that standards conversation has to be a negotiation, it has to be a discussion, where you both come to an agreed upon point. That's critical. That's a big part of how you can get out of that nagging cycle. And then I think the other key thing to do is to set up reviews. So let's say your partner's now taking over their bathroom cleaning task and all the thinking work that goes with that, that might be the schedule, it might be making sure the shopping list has toilet paper added to it, if that's out of stock, it might be holding the laundry schedule in to make sure the towels are you know, changed over whatever it is that you've decided is included doing and the thinking we want them both to go together. And then in in, say, a fortnight you go, let's sit down and review how that's going. And so that's the chance to be like, Hey, I don't know how well that aspect of the task is happening in accordance with the conversation we had. So I think if you set up those systems, that facilitates for a lot of women that release in the in between of I know that there's a catch point for this in two weeks, and we'll chat about it then. But in between, I'm just going to try and give him the grace to figure it out.
Fiona Weaver 21:19
Talk to me more about the systems that you can use as a couple as a family to make sure this stuff because I know that what people will be thinking is yeah, I'll have the conversation, we'll start the thing, and then we'll just all go back to where it was.
Dr Elyse McNeill 21:33
Yeah, I'm a big fan of regular relationship meetings. Maybe my new title is the queen of unsexy conversations, right? The having those time points set aside like life is so busy, right between work schedules, your own self care, wherever that fits in, you know, dropping kids off running them here and there managing all of this load, right? The whole point here is there's a lot. And so carving out deliberate time where the two of you can chat about one how your relationships going. Because at the end of the day, that's that's really the aim right is for your relationship and your family overall to be as harmonious and connected and happy and content as possible. So how's the relationship going? But also, how are we going around this sharing stuff? We put this in place last time, how is that looking? Is there anything else we need to adjust? You know, a couple of people that I spoke with were shift workers or had sort of varied schedules. They weren't stock standard. And for them this relationship meeting was, you know, absolutely paramount. What are who's doing drop off and pick up this week? How are we negotiating that, you know, this mental load has been with me around the groceries and the shopping list, but I haven't got a capacity this week, I've got a deadline on a work project. So that's going to be yours. So this kind of relationship check in one for the health of your connection, and then two for your systems around? What is that sharing look like? What is our schedule look like? What adjustments are we making, just makes it really conscious? Because I think one of the biggest risks is it gets lost in the in the busyness of life, and then you only kind of address it again, when it's a problem. And when you address it in that space, it's conflictual, typically, because there's angst and you're on the fly and you're run down yourself, you never know you will always exactly and then your partner's just defensive. And it's a shitshow. So I think if you have that time set aside, you know, when the kids are in bed, or you know, a phone call on the lunch break, that actually works really well for some couples, when you don't have sort of extra extra care arrangements or when you're in The Hurt Locker Room and new Bubba and sleep maybe isn't super consistent yet. You know, find the pocket of time in a day where you can actually connect and schedule it and honor that schedule held on that commitment and have the conversations, then
Fiona Weaver 23:50
that's a really good idea. And even getting out the little weekly planner on a Sunday night and saying what does this week look like instead of just doing everything on automatic? There's Yeah, it takes a lot of conscious work, doesn't it? Yes.
Dr Elyse McNeill 24:04
And the other one there, I think is that it also does is so often women become the kind of emotional thermometer of the relationship. Hey, we aren't as connected as we need to be how's our sex life going? Are we on the same page with parenting? And it's, it's another piece of mental labor to be doing that work of kind of reviewing and checking in on your relationship and then being the person to bring stuff up. So the other real advantage of that check in I think is it helps in that space, too.
Fiona Weaver 24:29
Yeah. Is this when we talk about the mental load in the mental labor? Are we also sort of inadvertently talking about the division of labor, physical labor or the task management and things as well?
Dr Elyse McNeill 24:42
Yeah. Yeah, pretty hard to separate. They are inextricably linked. I think what happens though, is people forget the mental load and they focus on the task. And you see this a lot. Even on social media, people were talking about mental load, but they're actually talking about a task. So getting really clear on what that mental load is. That's why one of the strategies I think is Super helpful initially is when you're redistributing and trying to get to, you know, a way of sharing that works for you in a more conscious kind of manner. You want to really take the mental load with the physical tasks, because so much of the franticness in that that cognitive space is the person's doing the task, but you're doing all the thinking. So then you're having to instruct and you're having to check in and you're having to follow up. And they're actually actualizing. The task. So way I see this a bit is the person who takes the kid to an extracurricular activity, so they're taking them to soccer practice, but Mom is the one communicating with the other parents making sure the equipment's packed, has got the notice from the coach about the change of time or location, and then he's having to handle all that to their partner. And it just is so ineffective. So if a person is the one consistently doing the drop off, say, Dad, in this instance, for soccer, dad needs to take on all of that seemed to work too. So when we push it
Fiona Weaver 25:56
disempowering for the dad as well, isn't it when we take over all of the rest of it, it can feel disconnecting for them to just be doing the drop off, and actually not really knowing what else is happening?
Dr Elyse McNeill 26:06
Yeah, absolutely. And we can really help them feel. You know, one thing we know about fathering particularly, is it when dads feel competent and confident, they're much more involved fathers, and we've got a role to play in how competent they kind of get to feel because that's part of that intensive mothering piece. Yeah, we think it's our domain because I can
Fiona Weaver 26:27
step up. That's it. Just hard to do sometimes. It's really hard. What is What does fair and equal look like? And is that different between families? Because I hear about people aiming for 5050. Sometimes I know, that doesn't work, there is no 5050.
Dr Elyse McNeill 26:50
My first question is always tell me how you're going to quantify that. Yeah, they do. And it just becomes this real tit for tat kind of dynamic. You know, and I see couples do this a bit around self care, even, you know, I had an hour at the gym. So I have to have my hour doing this. And what we want is a split that feels good for the couple. So say, in our relationship, me and my husband, I have more of a natural affinity for what he calls the life admin. I'm much better at responding to emails and booking appointments and doing those things. I've done a lot of that in my work. It just comes more naturally to me, and he doesn't work in that way in his actual work. And his brain isn't as oriented that way. So what we've established is, I probably do, I don't probably I definitely do more of that load. So it's not shared 5050. But to facilitate me to do that, to support me to do that there's a whole host of other things he does. I don't ever cook. He does all of the outside work. He does the bulk of other organizing, there's so many other things he does. So overall, is it 5050? No, I probably still do a bit more. But I'm conscious where I do more. It's because I have a preference to do more or actually like it. The clothing example before I love online shopping for clothes.
Fiona Weaver 28:10
Yeah, probably take on that role. Yeah, I'm not giving that one up.
Dr Elyse McNeill 28:13
So that consciousness around what do I enjoy? What am I better at where are the efficiencies. So I don't think differentiation in couples has gotten a bit of a bad rap as being kind of unequal. The ultimate thing here is how satisfying a division feels for the couple. And that is going to look differently for everybody, which is why this overt notion of 5050 is so problematic. We all have variations. And we all have different economic circumstances, family backgrounds, innate individual preferences, skill set differences, there's so much that influences this. So in my course, actually, it's one of the key things that I wanted to do was not go here's a laundry list of problems that are common, but to help couples really go here are the problems we're having. So this is where our sharing isn't working. You know, I'm feeling frantic in these ways. And there's no flex in our, our sharing, that means you take on more, you never seem to notice. So that's the thing we need to address. So getting that individualized identification of your actual problems is super key. And that really moves you away from 5050 is an arbitrary goal to going, Hey, if we get creative here, particularly with say physical tasks, if we get creative in that space, what new ideas can we generate? What actually works for our lifestyle? What can we not do? That's another one that women often don't think about when I talk to them is what are you doing that you maybe don't need to be doing? Where is intensive mothering playing out for you? Or that idea of what it means to be a good mother? And how much do you actually believe that versus feel like you have to so doing away with stuff is part of it getting out of 5050 as this arbitrary endpoint is part of it. And really sitting down and having that conversation between you and going. If we get rid of as much if we can't as We can that external noise. What do we want? What's going to work for us? Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 30:06
Which is really empowering. It's a different stance, isn't it to I do way more than you, you need to step up? Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Yeah. I love that. So can you speak to what gets in the way of good sharing if we are trying to make it more fair, or whatever that looks like for us and our values, what gets in the way?
Dr Elyse McNeill 30:33
I think this idea gets in the way that we're not 5050. And we should be. Yeah, I think when the connection within your relationship isn't in the space, you probably want it, I think that's really hard to, when you've got these buildup of resentments, you feel let down, you feel like you haven't been a team. Often, a lot of that needs to be cleared out first. Because really, what you need to do to share well is you you've got to kind of drop some of that baggage and hit reset as much as you can and go, we love each other, we want to pull in the same direction where a team, how do we help our little family thrive. But to do that, you've got to be in a space where you've got some positive regard for each other, where you know that that team mate kind of mentality actually feels real. So for a lot of couples, there's some repair work there. Sometimes that might need sort of therapeutic intervention to really clear stuff out and help reset patterns. Some of it is, you know, just that willingness to kind of drop that together and say, Hey, this hasn't been working, we're both frustrated. How can we clear, clear this and start fresh, and an idea that I really love is promoting within the relationship, a culture of gratitude. I'm so passionate about this, like, so many couples don't thank each other. Why should you should just do it? Thank you for doing the dishes and joking. It's like I've done all of these things today. Cool. Maybe you're right. But where does that get you?
Fiona Weaver 32:02
Yes, yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one. And I hear that all the time. Like, you shouldn't have to say thank you for, you know, to their kid or no, but it does, it really shifts the dynamic in a home when you are grateful for each other. Absolutely. And you've both got to be doing that are really young, I remember when I had just had a baby, or, well, probably both times, I've just had a baby. Or I would, you know, make a real effort to clean the house. Like it just it feels nice when you can get that done, right. And my husband will come home and he would just put his hand on me and say the house looks amazing. It's just like that kind of stuff feels so just feels nice and nurturing. And you feel seen. And it's not much at all at all it takes house looks amazing. Versus when he comes in and just starts like asking questions. Did you get something up for dinner? Why is the gate open? You know, that sort of thing? Yeah. All the things
Dr Elyse McNeill 32:59
I do. Yeah. And the PC and RAM mental load is you've got to make it visible and regularly to your partner. And then they can show their gratitude for that as well. So, you know, I'll you know, my hospital come home. And I'll say if I've been at home that day, hey, here's the things I did today. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you for keeping that spinning, or Yeah, that's really helpful. I'll pick that up when I'm home and can continue it. But, you know, do I need to do that? No, but it's really nice for him to know. And for me to get that experience of gratitude as well from him. So yes, it's Moreover, with things like cleaning the house, but it's just as important to be grateful for the mental load, you know, your partner's carrying. So once it's made visible, which we know is one of the key kind of difficulties with mental load, we make it visible by sharing, by having those conversations repetitively, from a place of, hey, I did these things. And here's how it felt, or here's how it contributed, or here's how I'm finding that I'm struggling. And when we do that, our partners in the space where they can acknowledge they can meet us with support, they can, you know, honor that with some gratitude, whatever it is, but unless be overt, it, they often won't know because it happens in our head.
Fiona Weaver 34:06
Yeah, a lot happens in our head, the thing that I get all the time, lots of people get is he should have asked that's what the comic is about. Right? You should have asked Yes, you can ask but there's a lot that comes before that for you to complete one small task of the bigger picture.
Dr Elyse McNeill 34:22
Yeah, so instead of saying what do you need me to do to help and encouragement I give to couples into men, particularly when they're trying to really act on this differently? Have a look around Have a think yourself and say, Hey, I was thinking that this or this might be helpful. Do you have a preference or was there something else?
Fiona Weaver 34:37
This is a document that comes out and my husband and I all the time? He's like, I literally don't see it. I literally don't see it. But then even that just getting into the habit of looking around like training your eye to see stuff like that would
Dr Elyse McNeill 34:52
be women don't have a special piece in their mind that says they noticed the benches are tiny right over the shower. Right You think that's learned and you can learn it. And that's where those system conversations come in, right? You start to say, these are our divisions of responsibility with both the physical and the thinking work. And therefore this is now in your domain. So you have to figure out your process for tracking that. You know, and around there, say the gratitude stuff, I say the couples all the time, set a reminder to say thank you. I know you think that seems inauthentic. But you've still got to kind of see it and decide to do it and think about what to say, right? There's your authenticity, but it's a new practice, it's something you haven't been doing. And so life's busy, you're gonna forget, set yourself up for success and do things like that. And the same thing, you know, if you were starting a new job, and somebody was showing you how to do a task that you had to take on, in a lot of instances, if you were trying to demonstrate your willingness to take a few notes, or you do something to help yourself learn that thing. I don't see why we can't take the same philosophies into our homes and our relationships and the way that shows respect to your partner and honoring of their struggle and what you're trying to now show up and do even if you haven't been doing it. I think that's a really beautiful thing that we can gift. So taking it seriously. And if you don't currently know, say to your partner, can you show me when you notice things that need to be done? How do you figure that out? What's your process?
Fiona Weaver 36:21
Like having a little anchor point in your day, say, when you both brush your teeth and go to bed, you could write on the mirror? What you're grateful to each other? Or say thank you for, you know, something like that, that gives a little anchor point. Right? So really remember it in the day two? Yeah, yeah, or the breakfast table or something? Yeah, that's lovely. So we have some strategies on how we can communicate this with our partners, how we can explain the mental load, make the mental load visible, have some systems and strategies in place to navigate that, what if our partners just aren't willing to get on board, like we talked about, it might not feel very exciting for them. If, you know, we are telling them that they things around here are going to change if they've had a pretty good. So how do we navigate that?
Dr Elyse McNeill 37:05
The first thing you want to do, and it's not an uncommon situation, but you really need to understand why have they got some ideas around gender roles that maybe they're not even conscious of? Are they feeling overloaded in ways you haven't understood? You know, they're very benefit of the doubt explanations, there's obviously some that aren't as kind just around them, really, maybe not being that much of a caring partner at this stage and kind of trying to figure out why that is. So a partner who's absolutely not willing to have these conversations, I'd look at those things. If if you think there might be something in that for you to own around, Have you struggled to communicate this and gotten, you know, quite likely to be critical, undermine them. So the there's a concept within intensive mothering and those notions of maternal gatekeeping. And the idea there is that because of these ideas about what we need to do, and our roles as mothers, we sometimes really prevent our partners from taking over or taking a part in tasks, particularly as it relates to our children. Sometimes there's good reason for that we've seen our partner not manage, or we, you know, have things that have occurred that make us really hesitant. And sometimes it is our own anxieties we have this way we feel like that's right. And we just get unsure about anybody else, including our partners partaking in that same way. And what that does is it reduces the confidence and competence of our partners as parents, and they then get less likely to be involved, and they feel like they're just going to get things wrong, and why would I even bother? So that's something I do hear from men is I just get criticized, why would I bother? It's never good enough. I don't know why she even asked me because she's just going to redo it. So if there's aspects of that, that you can identify at times have been part of your dynamic and part of how you respond, I'd really encourage you to have a think about that. And again, see, we can kind of hit a bit of a reset, what new space can the two of you find to work from where you might flag for your partner that on reflection, you can see that you've played a role in how they might feel. I obviously am not encouraging you to take responsibility for a partner who is just overtly disinterested and not supportive, and really not partaking, I think if that's your situation, I'd really encourage you to get some additional support because they're bigger dynamics. But if both of you kind of mean well, but you've got into this sort of back and forth of I'm not going to bother because you just criticize and I'm not going to ask you You never do anything, you're kind of useless. What we want to do, they always create some space to work by acknowledging the ownership both of us need to take of how we contributed and try and find a new path and that gratitude appreciation. Some of those small pieces can be a big part of how you create that reset.
Fiona Weaver 39:47
It definitely does take true, doesn't it and I know that this is going to be a barrier to a lot of people feeling as though it's another thing that they have to take on to convince their partner to look into this stuff, or if they're not looking into it, convince their partner to go and seek, you know, couples therapy or something. It can feel really hard for people.
Dr Elyse McNeill 40:10
It really, really can. And it's so unfortunate that the person who is most primarily experiencing it as a problem typically has to be the one to acquire that information and make the suggestions and initiate the conversations. I don't think in the short term, there's an easy way around that. But the quickest way forward through that is educating yourselves together. Learning about this together, there's things like the course I'm putting together, there's great books, there's podcasts like this, I think sharing these sorts of things with your partner and really recognizing and flagging with them that what you want is to feel like they're part of the solution. You don't need to kind of focus on all the ways that they've let you down right now it's not about and I think that's some men's concern when they initiate or partaking in conversations like this. I'm just about to get blasted for all the ways I'm kind of incompetent. And who wants to do that? I don't want to do that. So if you can come from that frame of, we've been where we have, let's understand that and let's both own how we've contributed, where you've both got something to own? And then what are we going to do from here, I'm not going to keep educating you on this issue I've told you to, I've given you the language I've given you an understanding, my ask is that you flesh out your understanding, say the worksheet that I mentioned, that's free on the website, where you can identify your mental labor, you might email it to them and say, I'd really appreciate you taking some time with this. And can we sit down Saturday morning over a coffee and have a look at it together. So invite them in these ways, and really show them how they can step up and how you can then share the work of this rather than it remaining with one of you because it just won't work. It's just more mental labor, if it doesn't start to be something you share, once you're in that process of trying to fix it improve.
Fiona Weaver 41:54
Yeah, and I think like you mentioned, anything in relationships, hey, bringing it back to you and how you are feeling about that situation, instead of just going in full attack mode, which is what happens when we are stressed and stress and stress. And then we've lowered that's usually much more attackee. So if we get if we have these conversations with our partners, at a time, where we are both regulated and aware of what's going on and say, Hey, I feel like, you know, I'm not coping with the load at the moment. And I'm thinking we could probably distribute this a little more fairly, let's have a chat about what that might look like for us, we're going to have a lot more success. And I think
Dr Elyse McNeill 42:33
that the connection in their relationship, and I've seen this improves drastically when that's the case, you both feel like you're pulling in the same direction, you both know, I know a lot of men who start to have this, I'm capable, like I can really do this. And I want to be a better partner. But I haven't necessarily known that way. And it's not your job to give them all the answers to that that's absolutely their journey and that process. But sometimes we can sort of invite in a way that is really encouraging, and will get us both where we want to go, which is a more connected, more thriving, better sharing relationship, which is only going to benefit our family and really going to benefit our kids because they're seeing a different way of doing it. Right. That's my other big passion is what we can show our little people when we're modeling a different way. And a really conscious way of doing this. It isn't about all that historical stuff.
Fiona Weaver 43:21
Yeah, from think about that as well. Another thing that comes to mind, as well, as you know, as you're saying, if the relationship isn't in a good place, you kind of have to work on that. First, it's similar to when our attachment relationship is a bit rocky with our kids, they're not going to listen to us, they're not going to want to please us or work with us. So we always have to start on those foundations first and make sure the attachment is where it is connection is where it is. And then we will have more success with the practical strategies.
Dr Elyse McNeill 43:49
Definitely. And then they'll wave into each other really beautifully, right? Like the more that you're sharing improves and you feel team, like, the more space you'll have to connect, the more you'll want to spend time with them and talk about things and do that because you kind of like them again. And
Fiona Weaver 44:06
that's nice isn't it is critical to a relationship liking each other. So one thing I did notice in your research was the finding that it can look a lot different when the both parents have been primary caregiver for a stint of time. Can you speak to that a little bit? Absolutely. It
Dr Elyse McNeill 44:24
was an interesting finding. Because I think the thing the thing that struck me was it doesn't necessarily matter when it just is that once that has happened, there's a huge difference in most couples for how comprehensively the sharing isn't managed. So I had couples where they had done some initial shared care so one partner had taken the first six months the other the next six months, others who the mom had been primary care and the dad to leave when one of the kids were say four years old and had had sort of three or four months at home as a primary carer, or couples who've done true shared caregiving from the beginning, in that they might have both had a three day a week. At work schedule, so individual time with their child, what I see a lot is when moms particularly had done the majority of the early caregiving, and had to leave from work, while their partners have been in paid employment outside the home, is, in many instances, the dads have never had one on one time with their child. And so they're taking them out for an activity on the weekend. And they're saying to their wife, or partner, what needs to go in the bag? What do we need to take? What food do they need? When are they sleeping? It's like, you have no capacity to hold that in your mind, because you're not the one doing it. And so that makes sense to a point, right? If you've got this division, where one of us more at home and one of us more in the workforce, there's going to be differences in your load. But for overall sharing, and for the both partners to truly understand all of the thinking work, the magic answer is absolutely each of you having a period of shared care, my husband and I have just done this. So I was at home for the first four months, we sort of shared and then he's had about six months home as the primary care of our little boy who's now just in care. And we're both working again in a part time capacity. So back to his shared roster. And that's been huge, because although he was pretty culture, but conscious of it, you know, having your partner to a PhD, in the topic kind of interest could be talked about the period where he's been home has absolutely just been the thing that has really made the difference. He's got ownership of so many aspects of this, there's things that he's you know, across the board, he can lead any aspect of his care, he's just across our little boys routine, his needs the changes, he's doing the research on things that might help, you know, ideas of how to entertain him or his days at home with him, he's just as likely to do that as I am. And I see this, as I said, across the board. So if there is an opportunity that you have, I totally get that that's not available for everybody. And you know, our systems really need to catch up with that. There's some interesting barriers around what goes on to how men are perceived, how seriously they're perceived to be taking their career if they take extended parental leave, which I think is absolutely rapidly changing. But that's definitely the environment we've come from this generation of fathers, though, are really leading the charge in that I know in my orbit alone, the amount of men who had extended periods at home or who have reduced their work capacity alongside their partners, to at least have a day a week say with their child, it's the thing that seems to be making the difference. So if you can navigate this in any way, I'd encourage you to even for a period of time. But the other version still is if if you're in an environment where one of you cannot take extended leave to be the primary caregiver or can't reduce your workweek, make sure the weekend that you have a solid chunk of time, that's just you and your little personal people. So that you pack the bag, you navigate their routines, you think about their needs, you plan the activity, you do all of that. And you practice that because you're going to feel so much more competent. And it's going to improve your understanding of your partner's load as well.
Fiona Weaver 48:02
And yeah, strengthen that relationship, that attachment relationship with your child as well. If you always talk about this, often, if you know Dad's having some time with the kid, it might often be at home, in a really safe environment. And I always encourage them to take them out where the child has to rely on you a little bit more. Because it's going to really anchor you as an attachment. Like it's, it's going to lead your child to look to you more than they might need to at home. Does that make sense? Absolutely.
Dr Elyse McNeill 48:38
Absolutely. And the problem too, if they're home, often what I see is they'll just yell out, hey, how do I do this thing? Or what's next?
Fiona Weaver 48:44
You're still around? It won't feel like time for the for the mom? No,
Dr Elyse McNeill 48:48
no, no. And it won't really help you develop that confidence and competence in yourself as a parent, which is really critical here and is the thing that so the other piece of research that I think it's quite interesting to flag is that household mental load, particularly when children are little was actually more likely to sit with dads for a greater percentage, but the childcare, mental labor, so anything related to medical, developmental, emotional, practical needs of children is almost entirely with mothers like unequivocally across the board. But the household was a bit different. And that can become a bit of an ingrained pattern, even out of that early kind of phase of parenting, where he's taking charge of certain aspects of that home life. And she's taking charge of certain aspects or nearly all aspects of the children. And so for true sharing, and you know, the extent of what's really important, most people will say that children are more important than if the dishes are done or not. So to really share that valued mental labor. It's so critical that men and fathers are partaking in that too. And so figuring out how to share care how to feel more competent and confident is one of the key ways you're going to get that to happen.
Fiona Weaver 49:56
Yeah, that was something I learned in Dr. Sophie Brooks. certification as well that you can also in a if you can't take planned leave your partner, but just to go away for at least a couple of nights every now and then what did it I can't remember who was responsible for that. But I had a term strategic or tactical or planned. Yeah, you familiar that I am
Dr Elyse McNeill 50:23
familiar with it. And it is another great one. But if you know even the minor versions of that, like the daily stuff of make sure you're the person one day a week, if you can, who does the pickup and the afternoon routine and gets them ready for dinner in bed, you know that even those micro kind of opportunities, where you're the one lead caregiving is going to really help.
Fiona Weaver 50:45
Okay, so how can people find you or learn more about the mental load and get started on some of these things that we've talked about?
Dr Elyse McNeill 50:54
Absolutely. So we're on Instagram at shatter thrive. And I'm sharing lots over there about different tips, different ideas that you can really implement around communication around connection and around the sharing of mental load. Particularly, as I mentioned, there's a beautiful download on our website at shadow thrive.com, that can step you through how to share how to identify your mental load, and therefore how that's going to facilitate better sharing. There's a newsletter coming regularly, if you want to sign up to that as well, where I'm going to share some deeper blog posts about some of these topics. And then there's our course, which is launching this week. And I'm so excited. And that's, you know, five modules worth like 35, videos, exercises, practical things that you can work through that will really step you through this. And the reason that I love my course, of course, I love my course. But one of the reasons I love it is it means that you're learning together. So I'm going to step you through communication skills. So you don't have to teach your partner how to have a better conversation and how to, you know, explicate their concerns in a more conscious way. I'm going to give you both ideas around different conflict management, I'm going to prompt you to think about how to improve your connection, but you're going to do the learning together. And it really helps change that dynamic. If I'm going to tell you and can you read this book, if you learn together and work through the exercises? My my aim and my mission is that this gets into a far better place for you quickly.
Fiona Weaver 52:18
Yeah, it takes away one of the barriers as well as you know, going together to get some support. If that feels a little bit hard. Hey, let's just watch a video.
Dr Elyse McNeill 52:27
Exactly. You can watch the videos together, right? And then you can sit down sorry, separately, and then you can sit down and do the exercises like I totally get how complex life is and how scarce time can feel. So the aim here was, you know, self paced, do it in the context that works for you carve out that time together, and really get this shifting, because the sooner we do that, you know, the more chance you have to be in that relationship people
Fiona Weaver 52:51
love it. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I am so grateful for your wisdom and I can't wait to see this course. And I know that it's gonna help so many people. So thank you so much for the work that you're doing in this space.
Dr Elyse McNeill 53:05
Thanks so much for having me. It was wonderful.
Fiona Weaver 53:08
Thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode, let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.edu Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
